MaDVader lists 6 women and 5 men, and one "Latina". If that's a woman it's 7 women to 5 men.I don't know but i think there's too many woman lord
So slightly unbalanced.
But if you leave out the bonus Trumbull campaign it's equally 4 to 4.
MaDVader lists 6 women and 5 men, and one "Latina". If that's a woman it's 7 women to 5 men.I don't know but i think there's too many woman lord
I'm not going to argue too much in my defense, because that would be sus, but I went out of my way to collect data to check for myself whether I have racisty expectations or the game is woke, with some measure of objectivity and evidence.
Your argument is basically, "if you notice a game is woke and complain, you are racist". Maybe I am, I hope not.
My problem is still that it seems minorities are over-represented, making the whole American backwoods experience less authentic. I assume that new characters are generated equally by race/ethnicity (white/black/latino, although Asians are rare) and equally by gender. This is not how it is in the real world where blacks in the rural areas are at around 10%, Latinos depend on latitude, and Asians are pretty non-existent. At least according to my expectations, but let's also look at the hard data.
I don't get to watch many TV shows, but I'm aware that more alt-righty types complain about Netflix blackwashing and general over-representation of minorities, women and non-heteros. So, this is my first real experience with it and it was unpleasant and unexpected, as I'm always on the anti-racist side of internet culture wars.
Souds pretty racist to me.I've been playing State of Decay 2 for a few weeks now, and it's surprisingly good after having my expectations set low by player reviews (possibly because of all the DLC content that wasn't there when those reviews were made; also the many small improvements and balance fixes made in patches).
However, one of the first things I noticed and it bothered me, were your characters, the survivors you play. After playing for a few hours, my 5 or so survivors were mostly black, there was a white woman and a Latino man, but there was no single white guy. It was hard not to notice if you played SoD1 where almost everyone was white, just the main character was black, and one NPC was Latino, while women were well represented - this was perfect representation of northern rural America, I thought (although you need more Latinos depending on how south you are).
So, let's look at some hard data by race and gender to see if I'm racist or the game too woke.
There are four predefined couples of characters when starting a new campaign:
- The Surly Siblings: Black Woman, Black Man
- Old Buddies: Asian Man, White Man (<- here he is!)
- Perpetual Breakup: White Woman, White Woman (lesbians for extra wokeness)
- Odd Couple: Latino Man, White Woman
There are two predefined couples when you start the bonus Trumbull campaign:
- The Last Wilkerson: Two Black Women
- Searching for Santos: White (?not sure, maybe black) Man, Latina
Once you start the campaign you get random survivors to join and they can be of any ethnicity or gender, probably random. When I searched the internet to see if anyone else noticed black bias, it turns out they did, but it was, as in my case, a random blip.
My problem is still that it seems minorities are over-represented, making the whole American backwoods experience less authentic. I assume that new characters are generated equally by race/ethnicity (white/black/latino, although Asians are rare) and equally by gender. This is not how it is in the real world where blacks in the rural areas are at around 10%, Latinos depend on latitude, and Asians are pretty non-existent. At least according to my expectations, but let's also look at the hard data.
I don't get to watch many TV shows, but I'm aware that more alt-righty types complain about Netflix blackwashing and general over-representation of minorities, women and non-heteros. So, this is my first real experience with it and it was unpleasant and unexpected, as I'm always on the anti-racist side of internet culture wars.
What do you think?
It's possible that when you look at the racist abyss for too long (I browse meme sites with heavy alt-right presence), the racist abyss makes you more racist or at least sensitive to wokeness.
Im just going to say based and call it a day. Anyone who's truly bothered and cares too much to scream on the internet because black elves has obviously some issues with race, and I agree sometimes diversity makes no sense in some contexts, but definetly LOTR is not the case, same thing in The Witcher series where I didn't even had read the books but really how could having black elves ruin my experience, seeing people angry at it just doesn't makes a lot of sense.Well, yes. Why would you complain about diversity in a videogame unless race bothers you?
But your oversimplification is not really a reflection what you said. You didn't objectively come to a solution by looking at data. You came to a conclusion and then looked at data supporting your conclusion. Don't disguise it as objective research, it isn't.
Allow me to talk about some examples I've recently noticed in TV. There are two big Amazon shows. One coming up, one just released.
Wheel of Time and Lord of the Rings.
Now I've read Wheel of Time extensively. I've read them through and through for years on end because I love the big open world, the characters and detailed storytelling. I've loved the book series so much that I decided not to not watch the TV show when it released. I would wait until the first reviews came in because with Game of Thrones fresh in my mind I didn't want to ruin another good book series. I did watch the show.
The Wheel of Time had forced diversity in its show. The books tell of a backwater village where the main protagonist lives. Thats where the story starts. A backwater village. Through multiple adventures the main ensemble travels through the world, encountering many rich and incredible cultures, all with their own characteristics.
In the TV show that same rural, backwater village had not just 1 culture. But was a melting pot of different cultures. Now that posed some serious questions. Because even though it is a great reflection of our modern day society, it takes away the awe and belief of, later on, discovering those other cultures. After all, if everything is diverse, nothing is. And how big did this backwater village become that it wasn't a village anymore but a town or city where all these travellers came from? The book version of our main protagonist stood out in the book version of the village. He was the only one there who was of a different culture. All through the books villagers responded to his looks and said: You look like a *culture*, are you sure you're not one of them? No, the main protagonist said. I was born in *backwater village*. Big plotpoint, he was of that *culture*. All these little things were taken away by not really adding much. It was shoehorned and created more problems then it solved.
The Lord of the Rings show however has added different elves and dwarves of colour. Which isn't in line with what we've seen in the movies or explicitly been told in the books but also doesn't disrupt the core experience. It has added diversity.
So while forced diversity implements it into a clunky and disruptive way for the sake of having diversity, added diversity neither contributes nor detracts from the core experience.
I get what you are saying about things being woke, I get it. And while I am bothered by the diversity added in the Wheel of Time, I'm not by the diversity added in the Lord of the Rings or many other movies and franchises. Not because Wheel of Time is too diverse but because it's shoehorned in in a nonsensical way that's disruptive to the story.
So representation makes sense if the setting for it makes sense. Any new day movies based in current time should have tons of diversity. Hell, I myself am a minority. I love to see my own represented! But when my minority group plays in on stereotypes, gets shoehorned in or in any other way gets treated or displayed differently then someone of the majority group would, I dislike it. Because good representation is different then any representation. I'd rather be represented in a way that it neither contributes nor detracts from the core experience then that my representation is disruptive and forced.
@MadVader Ask yourself this, is the representation forced and does it take away from the core experience or does the representation neither contributes nor detracts from core experience?
LOTR is specifically inspired by pagan tales like beowulf. Its cultures and languages are based off germanic and celtic culture of the iron age.Im just going to say based and call it a day. Anyone who's truly bothered and cares too much to scream on the internet because black elves has obviously some issues with race, and I agree sometimes diversity makes no sense in some contexts, but definetly LOTR is not the case, same thing in The Witcher series where I didn't even had read the books but really how could having black elves ruin my experience, seeing people angry at it just doesn't makes a lot of sense.
Now in this case in particular, it's just what I call a "bruh moment" because there is a black man and only a white woman as protag in a DLC and therefore it's too woke, it's definetly an exaggeration, and I don't know if Mad is the kind of person that's going to harrass black people - he is worried about coming out as a racist in the end - but it's definitely overthinking, and it's that little incel in every alt right's mind saying "hey you should worry about this little thing and make a value judgement over it". Don't end up like archaic warrior, white people are still the bigger presence in literally everything western media produces, trying to reach more cultures and people isn't something wrong, is just globalization man, we are all human beings living in the same world, you're going to have to face and get used to seeing different looking people than what you're normally used to, believe me, unlike what deranged internet people say, nothing bad is going to happen
buddy. my guy. "the pagan european tradition". c'mon now.Tolkien wanted to continue the pagan european tradition of folktales when he wrote LOTR.
even beyond this you are so wrong it's not even entertaning to correct you. ****ing hell.Tolkien said:The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.
It's a lot more egregious to the average person when a historical figure is race swapt over accurate medieval combat and otherwise minor inaccuracies that only spastic nerds will give a **** about.Historical representation? Watch every movie you have seen til today, and tell me they're 100% completely real historical representations. Take every medieval movie with people shooting fire arrows, completely ridiculous. People fighting with swords and no helmets to see the pretty dude riding, super strong plot armours, a gazillion historical inaccuracies, but hey, I draw the line at having a single black dude here man, that is so wrong and the other things aren't... Not because I'm racist, definetly not!
buddy. my guy. "the pagan european tradition". c'mon now.
even beyond this you are so wrong it's not even entertaning to correct you. ****ing hell.
I never claimed Tolkien was pagan.Tolkien wanted to continue the pagan european tradition of folktales when he wrote LOTR.
Of course Lord of the Rings is "only" inspired by myths. I never claimed it was a retelling of anything. That doesn't mean though that suddenly racially diversity makes sense in that world or was ever part of his vision when he wrote the books.I won't read your whole post because it's the usual "it's inspired by" bla bla bla "they must be white" discourse. Tolkien said he was inspired by it, not entirely based on those myths, in fact I recall a Tolkien interview saying his inspirations were completely loose and he ended up creating whatever he want upon those stories. Now, it's a TV show wrong for doing the same thing the creator done, 100 years later? You guys get really fed up.
Thats a strawman and you know it. I'm equally bothered by other historical inaccuracies as any other person interested in history. However there are some inaccuracies more problematic than others.Historical representation? Watch every movie you have seen til today, and tell me they're 100% completely real historical representations. Take every medieval movie with people shooting fire arrows, completely ridiculous. People fighting with swords and no helmets to see the pretty dude riding, super strong plot armours, a gazillion historical inaccuracies, but hey, I draw the line at having a single black dude here man, that is so wrong and the other things aren't... Not because I'm racist, definetly not! Hell dude the LOTR movies were cancelled by Tolkien's descendants because how come Legolas is shooting arrows while sliding in a shield????1? Here's why: it's fun, and because Peter Jackson can do whatever the hell he wants in HIS own adaptation of the book. . Based on your discourse, we should all go cancel Tarzan because he's a white dude lost in the African woods while it was more likely it was a black person, the thing here is, who the f cares, it's a fantasy, you don't like it? Go watch something else. I don't think it's that hard, getting entirely angry on people doing their own thing -because they can - it's dumb, and many "woke" people make the same dumb complaints when a white person plays in an idk, an Asian movie or whatever. Anyone can play anything, I geniunly don't give a crap, the only thing that matters to me is: Is it good?
Exactly. It is not like people opposing forced diversity in media "don't like them black people" ; the forced part is the issue.I think there's a difference between objecting to casting choices based om aesthetics, lore and narratives and then being racist.
They don't necessarily go together.
If leftists didn't have hypocritical standards, then they would have no standards at all. It's only an issue with them when the subject in question is white and therefore "muh racism". Anything and anyone else and it's " muh empowerment". Leftists are a virus without a credible vaccine(lol) to neutralize them.Exactly. It is not like people opposing forced diversity in media "don't like them black people" ; the forced part is the issue.
I'd love to see a historical movie set in any other place in the world other than europe and then I would oppose forced diversity hires in that all the same.
Also there are always exceptions to the rule. In theatre this also is less of an issue. Unlike movies people expect inaccuracies especially in the visual department. There a young woman may play the role as an old man. This is also possible because the characters are acted out more and less portrayed through their visuals.
Sometimes an actor may not have the background to back the role up but yet is a very good fit both in terms of looks and acting. Strangely enough when it is the very specific case of a white actor portraying a non white person the opposite side of the political spectrum has a problem and calls it "cultural appropriation".
If I had the time and inclination one could go look at the demographics of the area. Still, even with that, as long as there are at least 7 black people living there I don't see the game as necessarily unrealistic. Those people do exist even if they are a minority, if the game developers decided to tell the take of that particular person that is their choice, do what you will with it.Actually fans figured out where were the 5 maps taken from, so here you are: North Cascades National Park in Washington, Wichita Mountains of Southwestern Oklahoma, Cascade Mountains of Oregon, Jackson Hole region of northwestern Wyoming, and the one from SoD1 in Washington state.
Now what are you going to do with this information? I thought it sufficed to state the general rural demographics in the US and take it as a measure of authenticity, as, for example, rural blacks are more present in southern states, than in the Midwest/Northwest (= most game maps).
Yeah, it serves me right to be hit by excessive positive discrimination in my entertainment, because I didn't have anything to do with racism and its causes. This is exactly why racists call this reverse racism, and they are not completely wrong.
It's counter-productive, as it may make non-racist people resentful.
I was very happy to play as the black character in SoD1, he was a good main protagonist trying to bring order into chaos and to uphold values in a crumbling civilization. The other survivors you could play as and NPCs were mostly white, as it fits some godforsaken county in the Northwest, there were rednecks, country doctors with cowboy hats, hanging judges, pickup trucks everywhere - this made the game authentic. Now I get forced into a whole set of mostly inauthentic pairs for seemingly no other reason than wokeness.If I had the time and inclination one could go look at the demographics of the area. Still, even with that, as long as there are at least 7 black people living there I don't see the game as necessarily unrealistic. Those people do exist even if they are a minority, if the game developers decided to tell the take of that particular person that is their choice, do what you will with it.
I can relate to black people and a history of whitewashed entertainment just fine on my own, I don't need enlightment from a game. I dislike being forced into inauthentic diverse choices, just as blacks were rightly frustrated by having to identify with a black sidekick token character or all-white protagonists in entertainment not so long ago. Two wrongs don't make a right. There's no reason at all to over-compensate in the opposite direction for past errors.To be clear, I am not saying that you should feel bad about previous whitewashing. It's not like you have a personal responsibility. I am just saying that now you can probably relate to how a lot of people have felt for years
This depends on how it is implement. I do think that the new LOTR series could be forced diversity. Significantly different morphological differences don't coexist alongside each other for long, with one group destroying the other, or both groups hybridizing. I don't know the background of e.g the darker-skinned Elf. If he's from some other distant, unmentioned enclave of elves that developed darker skin for whatever reason, then who cares. But the Western Elves, such as the Sindarin and Noldorian elves, have their descriptions very detailed, and from what I remember of when I read most of Tolkien's works, they were extremely homogenous.The Lord of the Rings show however has added different elves and dwarves of colour. Which isn't in line with what we've seen in the movies or explicitly been told in the books but also doesn't disrupt the core experience. It has added diversity.