***Community Feedback ROADMAP - What Taleworlds still needs to fix!***

[Terco_Viejo]

@Duh_TaleWorlds Never forget this meme .

I hope™ you could find the time to give us better and concise answers here, those without semantic engineering and fluffy embellishments I mean.

 

[danEN]

You need to mention consoles 3x to spawn Armagan

 

[Senko]

Bad examples, books and deserters are such simple features, they could easily be added before end of EA.

One would think that, yeah. I doubt they will add them though :p

 

[Sigaretovic]

I try to reply to topics over the weekend since during the week there is too much work to be done. Naturally, that is not always possible since private life matters can come up. Having said that, it's been two days - hardly a drastic delay. Especially considering that a proper reply to a complex topic can take quite a bit of time. If people choose to be destructive rather than constructive (harming the topic at hand), I would think that they do so out of other frustrations.

In any case, the OP is being read (like many other topics on the forums) and I personally find it informative, agree with parts and disagree with others. Nonetheless, I appreciate it and will take it into account.

Thanks for the reply. But let's be honest. If it looks green and comes from outer space, then it must be an alien. So if a significant part of the people here are showing signs of frustration over the lack of response from TW, its hard to deny that there may be a reason for it. To write that we have other frustrations in life, because this community management is not working (and not perceived as described by TW) is hardly fair.

Anyway, about the reaction time, Dejan was tagged and didn't even reply something like 'Thanks, we will look into it and come with a response Soon(tm)'. I don't think anyone here expects TW to come with whole essays to reply to every thread, but some some form of ackowledgement is the least we can expect.

So, i don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here, but its time to realize that if TW wants their fanbase to remain patient, a change of PR strategy might be neceserry. And I'm pretty sure that reflects more than my personal opinion.

I'm looking forward to the reply on the OP.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Thanks for the reply. But let's be honest. If it looks green and comes from outer space, then it must be an alien. So if a significant part of the people here are showing signs of frustration over the lack of response from TW, its hard to deny that there may be a reason for it. To write that we have other frustrations in life, because this community management is not working (and not perceived as described by TW) is hardly fair.

Anyway, about the reaction time, Dejan was tagged and didn't even reply something like 'Thanks, we will look into it and come with a response Soon(tm)'. I don't think anyone here expects TW to come with whole essays to reply to every thread, but some some form of ackowledgement is the least we can expect.

So, i don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings here, but its time to realize that if TW wants their fanbase to remain patient, a change of PR strategy might be neceserry. And I'm pretty sure that reflects more than my personal opinion.

I'm looking forward to the reply on the OP.

+1. Just to add some thoughts, these type of topics have been brought up before and of the 100 missing features, or features that could be improved/expanded from Warband, I think we have only gotten 4? or 3? That Duh responded, for me, doesn't really matter. TW gotta walk the talk for me to be less "sour"

Small edit: those 3 or 4 features have taken them almost 9 months, btw.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

Thanks for the reply. But let's be honest. If it looks green and comes from outer space, then it must be an alien. So if a significant part of the people here are showing signs of frustration over the lack of response from TW, its hard to deny that there may be a reason for it. To write that we have other frustrations in life, because this community management is not working (and not perceived as described by TW) is hardly fair.

I think you are misunderstanding that. I was talking about broader frustrations with the game and / or communication rather than this specific topic. Not any personal matter that someone may be going through.

But I guess the real thing I wanted to respond to is the notion that there is no choice other than being hostile or destructive because we haven't responded to the topic (within some undefined time frame). I don't personally believe that that is the case. Everyone here has agency and choice in regards to the way they want to engage with others.

Some may believe that negativity will facilitate more of a response - but I don't think it adds anything over activity. Rather the contrary, at best it makes it harder to get to the relevant bits and engage in constructive discussion. At worst it can make it harder to realize otherwise good feedback (I don't feel terribly comfortable forwarding topics that have more text telling people how they and their work sucks relative to the actual feature discussion).

Anyways, this is a bit off-topic and the time going towards this avenue of discussion would probably be better spend on the OP

 

[Askorti]

Some may believe that negativity will facilitate more of a response - but I don't think it adds anything over activity. Rather the contrary, at best it makes it harder to get to the relevant bits and engage in constructive discussion. At worst it can make it harder to realize otherwise good feedback (I don't feel terribly comfortable forwarding topics that have more text telling people how they and their work sucks relative to the actual feature discussion).

Anyways, this is a bit off-topic and the time going towards this avenue of discussion would probably be better spend on the OP

I believe that if the community had the confidence that the threads are being read and actually seriously taken into consideration, people would not be as quick to vent their frustrations as they are.
Currently that confidence is very low, and people feel like their voices are not being heard. So when you believe that nobody cares about what you say, why bother being constructive? It feels much better to just vent and join the negative bandwagon, at least you get reassurance that you're not the only one, which replaces what should be there, meaning the reassurance that your voice is being heard by the powers that be.

I think the easiest thing that could be done would be to more often pop in and leave a mark, that a thread was noticed. I think even a short response, or a quick comment, without even engaging in a longer discussion would help. As long as the people would see that someone at the very least reads the OPs.
Mind however that that would be best done early in a threads' lifespan, not after it's already several pages of discussion in. Seeing a dev or community manager respond could even cut whatever negativity in that thread started growing in a bud.

 

[black_bulldog]

I think you are misunderstanding that. I was talking about broader frustrations with the game and / or communication rather than this specific topic. Not any personal matter that someone may be going through.

But I guess the real thing I wanted to respond to is the notion that there is no choice other than being hostile or destructive because we haven't responded to the topic (within some undefined time frame). I don't personally believe that that is the case. Everyone here has agency and choice in regards to the way they want to engage with others.

Some may believe that negativity will facilitate more of a response - but I don't think it adds anything over activity. Rather the contrary, at best it makes it harder to get to the relevant bits and engage in constructive discussion. At worst it can make it harder to realize otherwise good feedback (I don't feel terribly comfortable forwarding topics that have more text telling people how they and their work sucks relative to the actual feature discussion).

Anyways, this is a bit off-topic and the time going towards this avenue of discussion would probably be better spend on the OP

I believe, as do many others, that the frustration isn't a one time thing. TW lack of communication as an organization is one of the issues at hand not one thread. It's fine that it took you 2 days to respond because of work, but there is a community manager and isn't checking the forums part of his job? I'm not really trying to single out one person but there have been many great posts and suggestions that never get commented on by anyone from TW or when they're commented on we're told they're too complex without any other explanation. If TW didn't want open communications with us that's fine but the question I have to ask is why even have an ea if that's so? Because the feeling I've gotten from your company as a whole, except yourself and a few others, is that TW really doesn't want anything from us outside of bug reporting.

You claim that you guys have a vision but I've been a member of this community for years and I honestly can't say I understand what your company vision is. I think my issue with the game isn't as much lack of features but it's the pace of development seems glacial and that there are so many frustrating issues in the game, such as ai pathing during sieges or how slow leveling certain skills are, that have never been touched. I hope that things get better but I've personally hold out little hope because from what I've seen so far TW general lack apathy towards this community is more telling that anything.

 

[Bloc]

Some may believe that negativity will facilitate more of a response - but I don't think it adds anything over activity.

I don't think anyone thinks like that - in other words, they are not being negative because they hope they will get a quicker answer in this way. They are being negative because situation is hopeless for many - until now this was the only outcome that came from suggestion threads. When people spend their time and discuss something for months and seeing that it's not even getting proper attention, it becomes clear that they just wasted their time and AAA money on a game.
So I agree to @Askorti - engaging doesn't necessarily mean you need to write big paragraphs or mini blogs as response - simple quick engagements are also fine for many people. As I explained this to Dejan months ago, even marking suggestions or notifying suggestion OP's as "Discussed but declined" helps. Right now, the community have no idea what's happening and many feel like they are talking to a stone wall.

That being said, I'm not sure why you need to do spend your personal time in this anyway. It's good that you want to do this and answer about things that you are related to, but you don't have to do other people's job in your spare time/weekend. Next thing they expect devs to mop the floor and clean the windows. If "devs involving in forum" is a culture in TW, then it's a good culture, but still in this case you shouldn't be the only one to engage in these discussions alone - because you are not making the game alone.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

I don't think anyone thinks like that - in other words, they are not being negative because they hope they will get a quicker answer in this way. They are being negative because situation is hopeless for many - until now this was the only outcome that came from suggestion threads. When people spend their time and discuss something for months and seeing that it's not even getting proper attention, it becomes clear that they just wasted their time and AAA money on a game.

I mean in this very thread we can find...

I've been thinking about this - what kind of pressure would get at Taleworlds? You could write petitions, threaten boycotts, nuke your forum account in protest, but it's inconsequential small beans. There's a sucker born every minute and demanding customers are a minority.
My conclusion is that keeping the negativity on their forums is the best pressure, even if it's sometimes unfair. No one likes protesters in their front yard and it doesn't look good for the company. Make memes, "X when?" threads and vent with cynical, but witty rants. They can't stay holed up forever.

So I agree to @Askorti - engaging doesn't necessarily mean you need to write big paragraphs or mini blogs as response - simple quick engagements are also fine for many people. As I explained this to Dejan months ago, even marking suggestions or notifying suggestion OP's as "Discussed but declined" helps. Right now, the community have no idea what's happening and many feel like they are talking to a stone wall.

I am not saying that there can't be more of these types of engagements / posts, but I have doubts that they will impact the discourse in the way some folks seem to think - it kind of goes back to the original argument I was trying to make in that regard. Nonetheless, it's easy enough to discuss making more "Thank you for your feedback / post" type of responses with Callum and Dejan. They already do the leg work of reading through and forwarding the feedback in any case.

That being said, I'm not sure why you need to do spend your personal time in this anyway. It's good that you want to do this and answer about things that you are related to, but you don't have to do other people's job in your spare time/weekend. Next thing they expect devs to mop the floor and clean the windows. If "devs involving in forum" is a culture in TW, then it's a good culture, but still in this case you shouldn't be the only one to engage in these discussions alone - because you are not making the game alone.

And I am not alone in posting. I think people get that impression because they frequent specific parts of the forums / focus on discussing specific parts of the game. There are plenty of developers who engage on the forums.

 

[Magello]

I mean in this very thread we can find...



I am not saying that there can't be more of these types of engagements / posts, but I have doubts that they will impact the discourse in the way some folks seem to think - it kind of goes back to the original argument I was trying to make in that regard. Nonetheless, it's easy enough to discuss making more "Thank you for your feedback / post" type of responses with Callum and Dejan. They already do the leg work of reading through and forwarding the feedback in any case.


And I am not alone in posting. I think people get that impression because they frequent specific parts of the forums / focus on discussing specific parts of the game. There are plenty of developers who engage on the forums.

Just a suggestion/idea, which if it is not answered it is whatever, but you hinted that vision was the difference here. TW may feel as if it has properly stated its vision of what Bannerlord will be but I know for me personally I don't feel I know what it is, and it appears from the many forum posts that part of the community feels lost on what the real vision of Bannerlord is.

I truly believe a clear understanding of what TW's vision for Bannerlord is would lead us towards more constructive discussions on the game.

 

[Duh_TaleWorlds]

Just a suggestion/idea which if it is not answered it is whatever but you hinted vision was the difference here. TW may feel as if it has properly stated its vision of what Bannerlord will be but I know personally and it appears from the many forum posts that part of the community feels lost on what the real vision of what Bannerlord is.

Maybe you could provide an example from another title of what sort of vision statement / clarification you are looking for other than what people know the Mount & Blade franchise for and what was stated in the various product descriptions.

 

[eddiemccandless]

I personally disagree f.e. with the category 4. Very simply put, feedback is important but so is a vision. It is the difference between Floris and PoP. One is a broad collection of mashed up ideas (before somebody gets angry - I'm a former floris dev, i can critize that mod ), the other had a vision. The latter means that feedback informs rather than makes decisions.

As someone who spent more hours playing PoP than I care to admit... Bannerlord has nowhere near the vision that was in PoP. Or if it's there, we don't see it, which as far as we are concerned is the same. And that is honestly infuriating, because as amazing as modders can be a professional company shouldn't be struggling so much with making a good product when they had foundations as amazing as Warband to build upon.

Bannerlord itself right now feels more like a collection of mashed up ideas as you say, than anything else. If there was a vision more people would be happy with the game. Outrage from players comes from a (probably misguided, since raging clearly does not help with making a good game) attempt to fix it. As I am sure you know. Just food for thought, I honestly don't think that you personally are really in the position to do anything about it.

Edit: and honestly, what bothers me the most is that there are huge problems with the core gameplay that are not being addressed, or even acknowledged. Mounted units can not hit troops on foot consistently. Collisions between units are wonky. The sense of progression is hit and miss, between the fact that armors are only mildly relevant and the leveling progression (plus the fact that unit hitpoints don't really change between low level units and high level units). Companions feel like placeholders (and honestly they kind of are). After release I was one of the most vocal proponents of "let them work, they will fix things eventually". Now I am like... will they though? I still don't think that raging and absolute negativity in the forum are going to help, but I can definitely understand the frustration.

 

[froggyluv]

As someone who spent more hours playing PoP than I care to admit... Bannerlord has nowhere near the vision that was in PoP.

SaxonDragon locked himself away in a remote cabin speaking only to local wildlife like spotted Otter and flat billed Beaver while writing PoP to be fair. Theres no one so dedicated at Taleworlds to creating a living vibrant world like that guy -they seem to look at it as a sum of its individual compartments -not a visionary gameworld

 

[danEN]

As someone who spent more hours playing PoP than I care to admit... Bannerlord has nowhere near the vision that was in PoP. Or if it's there, we don't see it, which as far as we are concerned is the same. And that is honestly infuriating, because as amazing as modders can be a professional company shouldn't be struggling so much with making a good product when they had foundations as amazing as Warband to build upon.

Bannerlord itself right now feels more like a collection of mashed up ideas as you say, than anything else. If there was a vision more people would be happy with the game. Outrage from players comes from a (probably misguided, since raging clearly does not help with making a good game) attempt to fix it. As I am sure you know. Just food for thought, I honestly don't think that you personally are really in the position to do anything about it.

I agree but to be fair the difference being TW developers are completely cucked by the management who are so hell bent on making the game so accessible for wider audiences that every feature is forced to have as much depth as a children's book. Even if the developers have visions and ideas that come close to mods like PoP they would never be accepted by the higher ups and their ****ed up business model.

I believe the management's vision goes something along the lines of "Bannerlord Royale".

 

[Bloc]

I mean in this very thread we can find...

But he is talking about putting pressure on the company in general - and that's negative for the company. Not about people being negative about every update/improvement. I'm not saying that you should consider "This game sucks" type of comments right away, but if a person is criticising the game in a salty/negative manner but with a proper language, it doesn't make that criticism invalid.

"Thank you for your feedback / post"

This alone won't make the situation better. Because if this is the only sentence that the community see in suggestion threads, then they can think that it's a standard bot reply. This combined with short but spot on engagements would do the trick. And I can guarantee that you will see the change.

And I am not alone in posting. I think people get that impression because they frequent specific parts of the forums / focus on discussing specific parts of the game. There are plenty of developers who engage on the forums.

I can name 5 at best - not more than 5. Including MP devs, yes. And I know that game isn't developed by 5 guys - like in old days

Maybe you could provide an example from another title of what sort of vision statement / clarification you are looking for other than what people know the Mount & Blade franchise for and what was stated in the various product descriptions.

Not an example to this - but at least people deserve an explanation about the features scrapped/removed/kept on-hold so that they can adjust their expectations about Taleworlds' vision

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/what-we-have-in-bannerlord-pre-release-dev-diaries-but-not-in-game-by-now.436973/

This thread is 2 months old - btw.

 

[Julio-Claudian]

Maybe you could provide an example from another title of what sort of vision statement / clarification you are looking for other than what people know the Mount & Blade franchise for and what was stated in the various product descriptions.

I think most people generally just want to know whether TW has the intention or desire to begin adding more substantial features in future updates, or clarification on whether certain aspects of the game will be expanded upon at all (like diplomacy/interaction between factions, my personal gripe) or whether they will remain basically as they are. Since a lot of the stuff that was planned seems to have been scrapped.

Whilst there are a lot of posts on here that are overly emotional with people venting frustrations... or just simply 'hating', you're always gonna get that sort of thing in an online space and I think most people are on here because they are interested in the development and have high hopes for the game. Also criticism in a text-based format often just comes across as far more aggressive than intended.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

I think much of the problem stems from the fact we have a very dedicated community who are willing to put their time into making threads like this. Problem you say? Well this isn't the first thread like this - nor even the first one this week. This community is constantly pushing out threads like this - which while individually great aren't always going to noticed by the developers.

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/what-we-have-in-bannerlord-pre-release-dev-diaries-but-not-in-game-by-now.436973/

There are hundreds of threads like this.

Now that is a good thing; it means we have a passionate community but also means our feedback comes in dozens of walls of text on a weekly basis. The dev's would spend more time reading our books then they would making the game if they read everything.

What might be better is if we just had one of these threads - titled 'Top Community Feedback' or something; which either links to other threads or just holds all the current info. Outline exactly what we want to show in there; and then we can use that as a main page. That way someone doesn't need to create a whole new thread every week to say the same things (and get annoyed if TW miss it). That way there is only one page TW need to spend the majority of their time in and the community can see what has been actioned.

I know this has no doubt been recommended before however we already have something similar for the suggestions pages;

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/sp-top-suggestions.409979/

 

[eddiemccandless]

I agree but to be fair the difference being TW developers are completely cucked by the management who are so hell bent on making the game so accessible for wider audiences that every feature is forced to have as much depth as a children's book. Even if the developers have visions and ideas that come close to mods like PoP they would never be accepted by the higher ups and their ****ed up business model.

I believe the management's vision goes something along the lines of "Bannerlord Royale".

Right but management is exactly the problem here. Management is where the vision comes from, not the individual developers.

 

[WMorton]

Sorry, I did actually miss multiplayer because I'm not much of an MP guy. If you want to shoot me some multiplayer-related issues that fall into the following three categories:

* (category 1) promised features, or previous series features that bannerlord doesn't have

* (category 2) balance, ai or design problems with the existing content base

* (category 3) problems with existing features requiring new features to fix them

then I can add them/a link to them in the OP.

You'll miss Bannerlord's quality of life features, battle sizes and graphics, but otherwise Warband is the much more feature complete, immersive, replayable and stable game of the two, with many great total conversion mods. I'd recommend waiting for a sale or getting a discount if you feel that Bannerlord hasn't been money well spent, though.

im cool with that