yes but tier 3? we are talking about Tier 6... yes vikings with garbage stats.We have Sturgian noble melee infantry. They are "Warrior son", "Varyag" and "Varyag Veteran". Varyags are literally Vikings.
I think you guys are closed on possible changes because of what we got so far. But what we got so far can be EASILY changed and mods like realistic battles, troop balance/changes, armor does something, ranged rebalance showed over and over again. It is as simple as changing typical balance values like health, speed, armor, damage etc.
Well, i think we had hundreds of games that deal with balance of differenciated factions. Starting from RTS, ending on hybrid action rpg's. This much similarity is just boring as every faction plays the same for me.
Total war got ambush mechanics and i can see similar thing being transferrable here.Also, fast skirmishers that are high risk high reward unit that will kite slow armored infantry sounds great if we balance different movespeeds
That is the problem with how currently designed cavalry is. I recommend testing mods that change stuff for cav charges and mounted troops in general.
So a lightly armored faction might be faster to get to walls, climb ladders, less clunky and build siege engines that are faster but more fragile.
You see we can do A LOT if we start opening up to new things. Total war shows we can have IN RTS factions that does not have ranged units and be viable in all similar situations we have here. Can't see why here it would not work (you always can have archer militia with bows)
Again you are comparing current situation where t5 130 athletics troops sprint with full armor to mosh pit in the middle. That is balancing problem
Their problem was not that they were unarmored. Problem is that all other t5 troops run almost as fast as them, even troops like armored aserai palace guards that does everything Ulfs can do but better. Another example of bad game balancing
They are. Did tests on this forum reg. actual cavalry advantage in autocalc battles. Vs the same tier infantry actual performance advantage on 1.4.1 is between 30 - 50%. As 3/5 Troop lines for Khuzait are cav this makes them better in autocalc fights and on world map due to speed. Tactical battles are actually closest to being balanced for horse archer armies
Comment on Sturgian Druznik's - Well AI does almost never gets them since only 2 top tiered units are mounted therefore they have no impact on balancing.
if you want the best archer visit Battania. cool
if you want the best crossbow men go to Vlandia. roger
if you want the best horse archer stop by Khuzait. nice
if you want the best cavalry travel to Empire. got it
...
these types of rare distinctions make the game more interesting/ more satisfying and a heck 'of' alot more fun.
yes but tier 3? we are talking about Tier 6... yes vikings with garbage stats.
I too would like to see more distinction between factions. your idea of "balance" by making every faction similar is lazy.
You guys are picking and choosing Lore and balance when you see fit. So which one is it; lore or balance? Troops don't make sense.
I would think half the player base is playing for the 'variety of troops'. Ex. if Stugians didn't use horses why not give them a boost to athletics .... Instead of giving every infantry the same "130" stats. why not change it to "135" for the appropriate faction. Giving Tier 6 infantry just makes sense or just boost athletics. its not like lords are going to be running around with all of one type troop. In fact it would take a couple of years in game to attain 200+ of the same tier 6 unit. And if you worked so hard to achieve that... well then screw it enjoy your hard work.
if you want the best archer visit Battania. cool
if you want the best crossbow men go to Vlandia. roger
if you want the best horse archer stop by Khuzait. nice
if you want the best cavalry travel to Empire. got it
best infantry, best throwing??!?!? etc etc....
these types of rare distinctions make the game more interesting/ more satisfying and a heck 'of' alot more fun.
You're right on paper but in game play it's much harder to get the special recruits to make the noble Cav for both those factions. If you wanna ammase a Cav fore the Khuzaits Heavy lancers are the best bet over the basic recruit horsemen of other factions. Probably doesn't matter to AI though. Vlandia will pull Banner knight out it's whatever somehow.Besides, Empire doesn't have the best cavalry, Vlandia have
Hah hah, good luck finding enough Battanian noble recruits! If you want good archers just grab Imperial recruits, they're really good and can be good HA (maybe better then heavy Khuzait?) too if you have the warhorses!if you want the best archer visit Battania. cool
if you want the best crossbow men go to Vlandia. roger
if you want the best horse archer stop by Khuzait. nice
if you want the best cavalry travel to Empire. got it
best infantry, best throwing??!?!? etc etc....
"Warrior son", "Varyag" and "Varyag Veteran".
Sturgia is already way too infantry heavy, restricting their options further and adding another copy of Veteran Warrior is completely unnecessary and would hurt Sturgia a lot. Sturgian Raiders are excellent, and much needed counter to horse archers.
And if you can't live without another copy of Veteran Warrior, you can always dismount your Druzhiniks. It's not like they can't fight as an infantry if you want to.
"Warrior son", "Varyag" and "Varyag Veteran" aren't exactly amazing even vs troops in their own tier.
That's why I was thinking they should do what they did in Warband's Huscarl and give Strugia's noble line an extra tier (tier 7) compared to others to really make Sturgia's infantry stand out. Those who played Warband knows that Huscarls were the one of, if not, the best infantry in that game and I don't see why they can't do that here.
And it's not that I can't live without a copy of the Veteran Warrior, but there is just nothing special about the Druzhiniks using them dismounted would be pointless because of the warhorse cost and low athletic skill.
Huscarls are Nord, Sturgians are Vaegirs. It was one of the biggest complains of players before release that Sturgia will be too much similar to Nords. I think devs struck right balance at the end with the current Sturgian troop tree and regardless if you are Nord fan or Vaegir fan, you can raise Sturgian army that suits your play stile.
Noble line troops should be something special and there should be a slight difference, take the Fians and Khan's Guard for example, that's the point I'm trying to get at in the first place. I didn't say to remove Druzhiniks, but to remove the Veteran Warrior in place for Druzhiniks being in the normal troop line. Therefore no penalization for Sturgia because in this case they would have an easier time getting melee cavalry. And in this personal idea, removing the Vet Warriors to give way to the Noble Infantry that would be T7 and would have a slight advantage with their higher skill levels in real battles.There's nothing special about most troops in the Bannerlord. Not every troop type can be special. Point of Druzhiniks is to give Sturgia good heavy cavalry, not the best heavy cavalry in the game.
Besides with the exception of Fian Champions, there is very little practical difference between top tier units in the class. You may set up test battles of 500 X against 500 Y and draw nice ladders and xml tables, but 500X will newer face 500Y in the game and difference between having X over Y in your army in real game battles is close to zero. Druzhiniks will do just as fine as Banner Knights or Cataphracts.
Turning Druzhiniks in to T6 infantry would make no difference to the effectiveness of Sturgian infantry and would penalize Sturgia in the cavalry department. Not to mention that it would make no sense lore vise.
I didn't say to remove Druzhiniks, but to remove the Veteran Warrior in place for Druzhiniks being in the normal troop line. Therefore no penalization for Sturgia because in this case they would have an easier time getting melee cavalry. And in this personal idea, removing the Vet Warriors to give way to the Noble Infantry that would be T7 and would have a slight advantage with their higher skill levels in real battles.
Anyhow, I honestly don't see vassals holding many druzhiniks being used in my play-throughs at all apart from the one or two here and there.
And that is also why I have also said before, to give shock troops back their shields. They currently still have 1H-weapon and their polesword and right now the AI's usage of weapons seems to be situational so giving them back their shield would be fine.You can't remove remove heavy 1H infantry infantry from Sturgian main tree.
So if shock troops get their shield back, this will be ok. Vlandia only have access to one 1h+shield infantry also with two of their infantry with no shield. And with druzhinik being upgraded to easier for AI lords and yourself because they've been moved to the common line, the lack of infantry will be made up for.If you remove Veteran Warrior, replace it with Druzhinik and then make noble line in to replacement of the Veteran Warrior, then you would effectively strip Strugia it's main infantry.
Noble troops are hard to get early everywhere but in mid/late game, if you have been doing village quests in the respective regions, they are easy to come by.Noble troops are hard to get and meant to be few in numbers. Fians are point in case. Battanian nobles are the best archers in the game but Battanian armies are not archer armies.
And that is also why I have also said before, to give shock troops back their shields. They currently still have 1H-weapon and their polesword and right now the AI's usage of weapons seems to be situational so giving them back their shield would be fine.
That being said, they do have a decent proximity to a siberianesque steppe up north-east, if it weren't constantly snowing I'd say they would surely be able to raise horses, or at least purchase them from the Khuzait folk. Sturgia are sort of meant to represent the Kievan Rus', the precursor state that was established in modern day western Russia by Scandinavian Varangians(as they were called). As far as I'm aware, the people's living in the region certainly had access to horses and not too far away a number of nomadic people's lived in near proximity(much like the Khuzaits).So why isn't Sturgia of the "sheeerdwarlll!" mentality featuring noble shieldwall-fighters instead of the rather a-factional heavy cavalry? They don't even have horses in their territory last I looked around.
Empire could easily handle some kind of even-heavier-than-legionaires infantry, and not even as "noble troop" unit type since their military is (or, rather, was) professional. We already have "Palatine Guard" as archers, but some kind of Imperial bodyguard outfit comprising of famed veterans wouldn't be that far-fetched.
Edit: Ninja'd by Kegeyn, hah.
Before the shield removal, I noticed that they only used the warrazor when fighting cavalry and when they was on the initial charge but after they would use their shield and sword because the long polearm wasn't appropriate for up-close fighting because it was getting caught on walls or friendlies. I believe I read somewhere that they removed their shield to make our choice in upgrading the spearman more meaningful.Sturgian shock troops can't replace Veteran Warrior, even if you give them shield back. War Razor they are using is 2H polearm and they automatically switch to it when in melee range. Which is probably why devs removed their shield.
And that my friend is where the noble infantry line I been thinking about comes in.. Obviously need to buff their stats and armor/weapon outload alittle bit more than the current Vet Warriors to make it worth them being a noble line and then also give them the T7 upgrade for further skill difference to other melee infantry.Moreover they don't have any ranged weapons, which is one of the things that makes Veteran Warriors so good.
That being said, they do have a decent proximity to a siberianesque steppe up north-east, if it weren't constantly snowing I'd say they would surely be able to raise horses, or at least purchase them from the Khuzait folk. Sturgia are sort of meant to represent the Kievan Rus', the precursor state that was established in modern day western Russia by Scandinavian Varangians(as they were called). As far as I'm aware, the people's living in the region certainly had access to horses and not too far away a number of nomadic people's lived in near proximity(much like the Khuzaits).
Is there any reason why the noble tree can't branch out and have both the Druzhinik and some nord inspired noble infantry? Since the Sturgians are a mix of Veagir and Nord it would fit quite well.
I guess it is too hard to give them 2 t6 options.Sturgia is already way too infantry heavy, restricting their options further and adding another copy of Veteran Warrior is completely unnecessary and would hurt Sturgia a lot.
I guess it is too hard to give them 2 t6 options.
No reason, but I feel like if the trees starts to branch off it will start over-complicate the units and that kind of things really puts someone like me off. For example Warband's floris mod, I didn't play it because even the simplified version troop trees were to much to memorize. A longer troop tree would be less confusing than a branched tree.Is there any reason why the noble tree can't branch out and have both the Druzhinik and some nord inspired noble infantry? Since the Sturgians are a mix of Veagir and Nord it would fit quite well.
I feel the Empire's infantry troops, especially the Legionary would be see as a specialization more than their archersEmpire - specialization in armored cataphracts and skilled archers
So as you can see most factions tactics aren't really focused too much on infantry
I still think they should just rip off system from Rus13.Noble line is already something that was not in Warband at all and main tree was expanded from 2-3 to 5 top tier units. When you design something as complex as Bannerlord, you have to put some limits on what you try to acomplish.