What's the point of Tier 6 units?

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Alrav23

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What's the point of the current Tier 6 units? 1 ranged and 5 cavalry units including Sturgia (they have bow skill but no bow equipped)... Why not include a Tier 6 infantry?
I currently have influenced several of my friends to purchase the game and all of them complain about no Tier 6 infantry (they understand its EA), but if its not going to happen why make them for cav/ranged. o_0*
My answer: "Why do you need a Tier 6 infantry when you have Tier 6 infantry on horses" :razz:. The problem with this is "balance". Currently a lot of troops have stats that don't match their weapons. (200* bow skill but no bow to use; most ridiculous screw up in the game currently) some units have visuals to armor/weapons that don't even match simulation *wow, why even have a troop tree encyclopedia then*... To balance further; Tier 6 cavalry should be given diff weapon options with increased athletics (for sieges), or... just give us the ability to unmount cavalry?
 
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Gelimer

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There is a very nice mod called "distinctive troops rework" by thevegman that fixes almost all the inconsistencies with unit stats among other things.
 

Gelimer

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I was trying to be helpful for curious people who want a fix that already exists regarding unit stats.

Your thread is pointless otherwise, it is early access with most skills not yet working, so nobody gives a damn about having tier 6 units or not at the moment, there are much more urgent things to fix/add.

It will probably never be changed anyway as they add more content and maybe more tier 6 units in the future.

The mod I talked about does exactly that btw, in a balanced way whilst keeping as close as possible to vanilla.
 
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there are much more urgent things to fix/add
Like that one bug where if you squatted ten times on one particular pixel in one battle scene the game crashes or something?

Or is it this arrow doing noughtpointtwofourninenine more damage than they feel it should you mean?


You're asking for minor changes here and there to a system that's fundamentally brok- BUT BUT BUT in their defense, they are working on this spectacular new patch that's gonna fix that one arrow doing noughtpointtwofourninenine damage more than it ought to. See? They know their priorities.
 

Alrav23

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I was trying to be helpful for curious people who want a fix that already exists regarding unit stats.

Your thread is pointless otherwise, it is early access with most skills not yet working, so nobody gives a damn about having tier 6 units or not at the moment, there are much more urgent things to fix/add.

It will probably never be changed anyway as they add more content and maybe more tier 6 units in the future.

The mod I talked about does exactly that btw, in a balanced way whilst keeping as close as possible to vanilla.
I wasn't trying to be a **** lol. I do believe troop balance is crucial, and should be addressed right away as it could affect snowballing/victories and various other aspects that need to be balanced.
However i was more hoping for some enlightenment on future aspects of Troop Tiers and balances of troops equipment. Hell, i would love to even see Tier 7 :fruity:. Any info/discussion is welcome.
 

Gelimer

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I am sorry i didnt sleep and thought you meant that I was a fool to talk about this mod , my apologies for my unkind message, i just over reacted :wink:
 

Brocephus

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I think the point is that there have been lots of mods that come out quickly to fix these trivial errors and inconsistencies and there is an open question as to why many of them continue to go unaddressed by TW.
 

Zwade

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or... just give us the ability to unmount cavalry?

F5 to dismount/mount toggle

Re: why no tier 6 infantry :
I reasoned it as they are lesser nobility troops. Nobles would be cavalry and not foot soldiers. The exception being the Fian Champions; which I lore-reason as the Battanians consider an elite foot archer a noble way to do battle. They are excellent two-hander infantry as well, but I cant tell if the tier 6 fian champ. actually has a two hander. It is a weapon worn on the hip, which seems to be a one-hander. The rest of the lower tiers have two handers prominently on their backs.
 
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Kegeyn

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I reasoned it as they are lesser nobility troops. Nobles would be cavalry and not foot soldiers. The exception being the Fian Champions; which I lore-reason as the Battanians consider an elite foot archer a noble way to do battle.
And for the same reason we could have Sturgian noble meele infantry (for their "viking" half)

Right now factions are so much similar to each other
How different in general is Vlandia to the Empire? Armored shielded inf, armored polearm inf, crossbow, basically the same noble troop.
Why we cant make Empire factions unique by giving them 1 different unit upgrade path each?
Why Aserai cant be a light armored, fast faction with great weapon skills but very fragile troops?
Why Khuzait... oh well they are sort of unique so i will stop with - Why they must be OP?
Why the only thing unique for Sturgia is their clown baggy pants?

And so on and so forth. I know someone will jump with "historical reasons" here but damn this is a game, how cool would it be to play ACTUAL berserker/viking faction, or hit and run oriented rebellious battania, or mobile fast striking glass cannon aserai?
And if its not 100% accurate? Do we really care that much if it gives to fun and sort of believable experience and add to the game variety?
 

Sheepify

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The exception being the Fian Champions; which I lore-reason as the Battanians consider an elite foot archer a noble way to do battle.
So why isn't Sturgia of the "sheeerdwarlll!" mentality featuring noble shieldwall-fighters instead of the rather a-factional heavy cavalry? They don't even have horses in their territory last I looked around.

Empire could easily handle some kind of even-heavier-than-legionaires infantry, and not even as "noble troop" unit type since their military is (or, rather, was) professional. We already have "Palatine Guard" as archers, but some kind of Imperial bodyguard outfit comprising of famed veterans wouldn't be that far-fetched.

Edit: Ninja'd by Kegeyn, hah.
 

Zwade

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Yeah, the Sturgians with elite infantry would make total sense in the same way the elite archer makes sense with Battania. They are not a cavalry-heavy faction, that's for sure.
 

Apocal

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And for the same reason we could have Sturgian noble meele infantry (for their "viking" half)

Right now factions are so much similar to each other
How different in general is Vlandia to the Empire? Armored shielded inf, armored polearm inf, crossbow, basically the same noble troop.
Why we cant make Empire factions unique by giving them 1 different unit upgrade path each?
Why Aserai cant be a light armored, fast faction with great weapon skills but very fragile troops?
Why Khuzait... oh well they are sort of unique so i will stop with - Why they must be OP?
Why the only thing unique for Sturgia is their clown baggy pants?

And so on and so forth. I know someone will jump with "historical reasons" here but damn this is a game, how cool would it be to play ACTUAL berserker/viking faction, or hit and run oriented rebellious battania, or mobile fast striking glass cannon aserai?
And if its not 100% accurate? Do we really care that much if it gives to fun and sort of believable experience and add to the game variety?
There aren't just historical reasons for the factions to be relatively similar. That's arguable depending on the time and place you want to look at. But there are definite gameplay reasons that you want every faction to have access to mounted, armored and ranged units. Hit-and-run (in the context of BL) only works with a mobility advantage; if you're slower than the other guy and that's your only shtick, they are just going to roll over you, all other things being equal. There is no ability to ambush either. You press alt and see where the units are in accurate enough terms while the AI has perfect information on all your formations at all times. Being fast and lightly armored works for horse archers and not much else; there are no foot troops faster than even the slowest mounted unit and being fast into a melee with terrible armor just results in your troops all dying in the moshpit. Every faction needs to be viable across a fairly wide variety of situations -- sieges, open field battles, village battles, etc.

Shields work, range is free damage, armor helps (even if it doesn't always do enough), mobility is important but not nearly so important that it is actually worth giving up on the other stuff in Bannerlord.

And the Empire is one faction in civil war at the start of the game, that's they all have the same troop tree.

Regarding the more subjective argument of fun with glass cannons, there was already a natural experiment of people's opinions on such back when Ulfhednars were shirtless. It seemed like many (if not most) of the complaints centered around the fact that they weren't tanky enough to survive. Then even if they did get into range to start dealing damage, they'd be at a numbers disadvantage and still lose.

edit: it just occurred to me that you call Khuzaits OP when they are only OP on tactical battles if you skimp on your own cavalry. I'm thinking that if they replaced Sturgian Druzhniks with whatever T6 infantry, that would be another hit to Sturgia's effectiveness against their eastern neighbor. You don't seem to be concerned with history so just look at like this: there are no vikings or Mongols, just Sturgians and Khuzaits. The Sturgians live next to Khuzaits and need good melee cav to help counter the Khuzait horse archers.
 
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Yeah, have to agree that having all the noble troop lines (fian excluded) be cavalry is abit bland to me. I don't feel there is much difference between them apart from the look of them, although Khuzait's nobles are horse-archers and Faris have javs which is different. But I don't see what's different comparing the Druzhinnik, Banner Knight and Cataphract apart from item loadouts.

When I first played the game, I thought Sturgia would have something that would make their infantry line stand out considering they are the descendants of the Nords in our beloved Warband. And when I saw there was noble lines in the game, I was abit disappointed that their's isn't an amazing footman.

In my opinion, Sturgia's horse-raiders should be removed, leave the skirmishing style to the Battanian's, and replaced by the Druzhinnik making them their primary horsemen. Their noble line should be an infantryman/woman (owe to sword sisters). And to make them different and stronger compared to other infantry and prevent them from being outclassed by cavalry and other noble-lines, they should be able to be upgraded one extra level on-top of the current highest level, like that of the huscarls who were the only T6 units in Warband.
 

hruza

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And for the same reason we could have Sturgian noble meele infantry (for their "viking" half)
We have Sturgian noble melee infantry. They are "Warrior son", "Varyag" and "Varyag Veteran". Varyags are literally Vikings.

So why isn't Sturgia of the "sheeerdwarlll!" mentality featuring noble shieldwall-fighters instead of the rather a-factional heavy cavalry?
It is featuring noble shieldwall-fighters. They are "Warrior son", "Varyag" and "Varyag Veteran".

In my opinion, Sturgia's horse-raiders should be removed, leave the skirmishing style to the Battanian's, and replaced by the Druzhinnik making them their primary horsemen.
Sturgia is already way too infantry heavy, restricting their options further and adding another copy of Veteran Warrior is completely unnecessary and would hurt Sturgia a lot. Sturgian Raiders are excellent, and much needed counter to horse archers.

And if you can't live without another copy of Veteran Warrior, you can always dismount your Druzhiniks. It's not like they can't fight as an infantry if you want to.

But there are definite gameplay reasons that you want every faction to have access to mounted, armored and ranged units.
This.
 
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Kegeyn

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I think you guys are closed on possible changes because of what we got so far. But what we got so far can be EASILY changed and mods like realistic battles, troop balance/changes, armor does something, ranged rebalance showed over and over again. It is as simple as changing typical balance values like health, speed, armor, damage etc.

gameplay reasons that you want every faction to have access to mounted, armored and ranged units.
Well, i think we had hundreds of games that deal with balance of differenciated factions. Starting from RTS, ending on hybrid action rpg's. This much similarity is just boring as every faction plays the same for me.

Hit-and-run (...). no ability to ambush either.
Total war got ambush mechanics and i can see similar thing being transferrable here.Also, fast skirmishers that are high risk high reward unit that will kite slow armored infantry sounds great if we balance different movespeeds

Being fast and lightly armored works for horse archers and not much else;
That is the problem with how currently designed cavalry is. I recommend testing mods that change stuff for cav charges and mounted troops in general.

Every faction needs to be viable across a fairly wide variety of situations
So a lightly armored faction might be faster to get to walls, climb ladders, less clunky and build siege engines that are faster but more fragile.
You see we can do A LOT if we start opening up to new things. Total war shows we can have IN RTS factions that does not have ranged units and be viable in all similar situations we have here. Can't see why here it would not work (you always can have archer militia with bows)

mobility is important but not nearly so important that it is actually worth giving up on the other stuff in Bannerlord.
Again you are comparing current situation where t5 130 athletics troops sprint with full armor to mosh pit in the middle. That is balancing problem

And the Empire is one faction in civil war at the start of the game, that's they all have the same troop tree.
For me that is a great reason to make them unique to some degree

Ulfhednars
Their problem was not that they were unarmored. Problem is that all other t5 troops run almost as fast as them, even troops like armored aserai palace guards that does everything Ulfs can do but better. Another example of bad game balancing

edit: it just occurred to me that you call Khuzaits OP
They are. Did tests on this forum reg. actual cavalry advantage in autocalc battles. Vs the same tier infantry actual performance advantage on 1.4.1 is between 30 - 50%. As 3/5 Troop lines for Khuzait are cav this makes them better in autocalc fights and on world map due to speed. Tactical battles are actually closest to being balanced for horse archer armies

Comment on Sturgian Druznik's - Well AI does almost never gets them since only 2 top tiered units are mounted therefore they have no impact on balancing.
 

Gelimer

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Yes Kuzhait are totally OP because they have all the advantages....

They have the best geographical position with Vlandia , they have lots of horses so they are difficult to catch but they can catch anyone they want ( HUGE advantage , it is like a player using easy mode for travelling speed, you can choose to fight only battles you cannot lose ) and on top of that they have some of the best units in the game and if that was not enough, they are also heavily favoured in auto-calculations......

So yeah....if there is faction that definitely does not neeed any more help with tier6 units, i think it is them :smile: Not to mention they dont seem to have the disadvantages that a steppe faction is "supposed" to have ( from a gameplay perspective because history is more complex ) , like not having many laws/policies, being weaker at sieges and not making as much from trade than more "urban" civilizations.

But it would be nice to have more unit variety, i agree 100%, hopefully more content will be added.

I just link the mod I love that introduces Huscarls ( balanced with vanilla , not OP) aside from fixing many stats issues in vanilla, probably my favourite mod with sound the alarm and fighting together relations : https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/1050
 
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TechnoSarge

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There is no ability to ambush either. You press alt and see where the units are in accurate enough terms while the AI has perfect information on all your formations at all times.
Y'know, it took me the longest time to realize there was a way to see where the enemy was. In woods battles I originally unleashed my horse archers, told them to engage, and then I just followed them with the rest of my force! It seemed that all my soldiers knew where da bad guyz were, but I didn't. Telling a line to "face enemy" sometimes surprised me when they rotated to face a different direction! Clearly, I needed to develop my situational awareness.

It's still that way in pursuing routing troops. There are no enemy markers hiding behind "ALT" during routs. I just find a stream headed in a particular direction, and because I ride an Aserai war horse I'm soon at the head of the pack, where I might have a chance to improve my weapon skills on unresisting routers. Gotta hand it to dose boyz of mine - they always know where de enemy is!
 

TechnoSarge

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Just occurred to me - don't you mean Tier 7 units?
Peasants are Level 1 = Tier 1. Next are 6, 11, 16, 21, 26, then 31.
I count 7 tiers.