Why the hell is the Tannery so overpowered?

[Nakh]

- Recruit units. - dirt cheap. And most of my recruits come from prisoner pool, which is free.
- Upgrade units. - dirt cheap.
- Buy food. - dirt cheap
- Buy equipment. - Armor and weapons just meaningless in this game. I'm buying top armor and weapons after I get filthy rich, since they don't do anything to actual gameplay.
- Recruit companions.- dirt cheap.
- Pay wages.- first serious meaningful gold sink in your list. But killing and looting cover this so easily, one don't need passive income for it.
- Bost buildings. - meaningless.
- Pay for release prisioners. - why? What point of this action?
- Pay for avoiding battles if needed. - Never done it. I'm always faster.
- Buy workshops. - For what? To have 200 gold per day? Any rusting sword from battle loot do the same.
- Buy caravans.- If you involved in wars your caravans will be destroyed, if you not - what do you need money for?
- Give money to lords to improve relationship. - Maybe. Spending influence was working better for me.

So, there is 1.5 valid gold sinks in this game. All easily covered by battle loot.

 

[eddiemccandless]

Are you aware that workshops income in Warband is weekly while in Bannerlord is daily...

Sure, wages are also daily but you are missing the point that while you can get your investment back in just 30 days in Bannerlord, in Warband you have to wait 20 weeks...

Wages are also weekly in Warband, my point was about balancing passive income with daily (or weekly) expenses. Once you have the workshop up and running it doesn't matter that much how long it is going to take to make the money you spent on it back. It does seem that in Warband everything was slower, given that the income you can make in a week from fighting probably compares to the income you can make in a day in Bannerlord. Perhaps that is where the problem is and why the progression feels off!

 

[Dabos37]

- Recruit units. - dirt cheap. And most of my recruits come from prisoner pool, which is free.
- Upgrade units. - dirt cheap.
- Buy food. - dirt cheap
- Buy equipment. - Armor and weapons just meaningless in this game. I'm buying top armor and weapons after I get filthy rich, since they don't do anything to actual gameplay.
- Recruit companions.- dirt cheap.
- Pay wages.- first serious meaningful gold sink in your list. But killing and looting cover this so easily, one don't need passive income for it.
- Bost buildings. - meaningless.
- Pay for release prisioners. - why? What point of this action?
- Pay for avoiding battles if needed. - Never done it. I'm always faster.
- Buy workshops. - For what? To have 200 gold per day? Any rusting sword from battle loot do the same.
- Buy caravans.- If you involved in wars your caravans will be destroyed, if you not - what do you need money for?
- Give money to lords to improve relationship. - Maybe. Spending influence was working better for me.

So, there is 1.5 valid gold sinks in this game. All easily covered by battle loot.

Sure, everything is dirt cheap in the game currently but can you please explain me the difference between giving nerfs for income or increasing the cost for things? Seriously... Somethimes people just read the word "Nerf" and go crazy...

On the other hand, if you only would get 200 daily with workshops, I would not being complaining about Tanneries. It can gives 1K daily and most of the times It gives 500-700.

 

[Nakh]

Sure, everything is dirt cheap in the game currently but can you please explain me the difference between giving nerfs for income or increasing the cost for things? Seriously... Somethimes people just read the word "Nerf" and go crazy...

Currently you need 3 workshops and 2 caravans to get 3000 per day. Alternatively, you can kill 1 weak lord every three days to have same income.

My point - passive income already low, nerfing it more will make it completely meaningless. And, most importantly, it will not make players struggle for money, it will make them kill one more weak lord every week.

If we need income nerfed (which I'm not sure we are), we must nerf battle loot. Alternatively, we need to add something to spend a lot of gold, something meaningful.

 

[TheShermanator]

What if they increased the base value of hides more and/or lowered the # of villages that make hides? I feel like the low price of hides is a big factor in the profitability of tanneries.

By the way, I generally am in favor of more passive income and nerfed loot income. My issue with tanneries then is not about passive income in general, then; it's about how some workshops manage to be just categorically more profitable than others. Choosing the workshop type should be as interesting, risky, etc as possible Right now, some seem to be just usually better almost not matter what, which makes it a little less interesting.

 

[drallim33]

What if they increased the base value of hides more and/or lowered the # of villages that make hides? I feel like the low price of hides is a big factor in the profitability of tanneries.

It would mean less hides get turned into leather, which would increase the price of leather, and everything would stay mostly the same as it is now, but with slightly more expensive hides and leather.

 

[Dabos37]

Currently you need 3 workshops and 2 caravans to get 3000 per day. Alternatively, you can kill 1 weak lord every three days to have same income.

My point - passive income already low, nerfing it more will make it completely meaningless. And, most importantly, it will not make players struggle for money, it will make them kill one more weak lord every week.

If we need income nerfed (which I'm not sure we are), we must nerf battle loot. Alternatively, we need to add something to spend a lot of gold, something meaningful.

Please stop saying nonsenses...

1- Please show me a video or something which proves that you are able to get 3K every day defeating Lords... The map is large enough and I really doubt that you can find a lord daily to defeat.
2- Sometimes you can get 3K daily with just one Caravan. I have said 3k with 3 workshops and 2 caravans because I just do not want to overreact and say nonsenses, just to defend my point. The truth is that you can eventually get much more money with 3 workshops and 2 caravans.
3- I really doubt that you do not use workshops and caravans because they are great sources of money. If you are not using them, you just are missing great income sources in the game. Anyway I do not believe that you do not pay for them, periord.
4- To defeat Lords you need an army, you do not get a decent army since day 1. If you are abusing the game with Khuzait units, you are just using another unbalanced way to play on easy difficulty.

Anyway, the argument about "this is ok because there are other more OP things" is simply silly and unnecessary.

 

[Because]

I think the big problem is that there seems to be a tendency to nerf ways of making money like the tannery, but at the same time to increase prices which has 2 effects.
1. looting becomes even more lucrative
2. If you are not playing a trader character (or anyone else who doesn't want to go Lord hunting) you are essentially having a harder and harder time to make ends meet.
I would love them to lower the price of all gear, let all things be bought in shops (rather than hid behind tiers) and just instigate something like the old Lordly level that you couldn't get by looting to give you a hugely expensive gold sink that would get you an item better than you could loot. It would fix so much about the economy and make things more balanced as you would no longer be commanding soldiers in a Million denars worth of gear while you were in rags as even if you could afford it you couldn't find the gear that the rest of your army could be wearing.

 

[Dionaea]

Information gathered by the VARTS Trade Guild mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/337)
I don't have enough good things to say about VARTS, but I will say that it deserved to win the tournament hosted by goodoldgames (GOG).

So... out of all the workshops across all cities in my save file
19 out of the top 20 workshops with the highest profit are all Tanneries!
I can't stress how overpowered this can become. Let me put it this way: only the Tannery was making over 1k per day, and there were two Tanneries that were making - wait for it - over 2k in profits per day.

So not only were Tanneries the safest and most profitable workshop option, but they are the only option that could make OVER DOUBLE the amount of money the next most profitable workshop (smithy) was making at its best (~900 gold per day). The top two Tanneries were over doubling the money that the best Smithy in my game was making! And that Smithy was making far more than the average money a workshop makes per day (200-400 GPD).

TLDR: nerf Tanneries. Again.

It's not overpowered, the other workshops are underpowered, stop whining about things being overpowered to prove how elite you are so they get nerfed and suck out all the fun for us medicore players

Yeah manual trade is super op and needs to be cut down to 1/5 or so of effectiveness

No, even on easy it's enough of a grind to be able to afford a small band of warriors via trading

Stop calling things OP humble bragger

 

[Dabos37]

I think the big problem is that there seems to be a tendency to nerf ways of making money like the tannery, but at the same time to increase prices which has 2 effects.
1. looting becomes even more lucrative
2. If you are not playing a trader character (or anyone else who doesn't want to go Lord hunting) you are essentially having a harder and harder time to make ends meet.
I would love them to lower the price of all gear, let all things be bought in shops (rather than hid behind tiers) and just instigate something like the old Lordly level that you couldn't get by looting to give you a hugely expensive gold sink that would get you an item better than you could loot. It would fix so much about the economy and make things more balanced as you would no longer be commanding soldiers in a Million denars worth of gear while you were in rags as even if you could afford it you couldn't find the gear that the rest of your army could be wearing.

Agree with increasing cost of equipment is simply an awful way to try to balance the game. Equipment should be much cheaper while getting money harder.

High prices for equipment just brings issues for economy.

 

[TheShermanator]

It would mean less hides get turned into leather, which would increase the price of leather, and everything would stay mostly the same as it is now, but with slightly more expensive hides and leather.

But wouldn't the increased cost of making leather make the profit per unit go down? Also, isn't the price of a good based on city's prosperity + supply not the cost of the raw materials behind the goods? I mean, I guess if the availability of hides got so low that leather supplies went down, that then yeah, the price of leather would stay high, but that would have to be a huge differential of hide availability - more than I would propose. If city demand remained steady, and the COG for leather increased, that should decrease leather profitability.

In any case, though, putting all of that aside: even if the price of leather was higher, the scenario I'm describing could still make make the profitability of leather lower, which is what determines workshop profits, right?

 

[Nakh]

Please stop saying nonsenses...

1- Please show me a video or something which proves that you are able to get 3K every day defeating Lords... The map is large enough and I really doubt that you can find a lord daily to defeat.
2- Sometimes you can get 3K daily with just one Caravan. I have said 3k with 3 workshops and 2 caravans because I just do not want to overreact and say nonsenses, just to defend my point. The truth is that you can get much more money with 3 workshops and 2 caravans.
3- I really doubt that you do not use workshops and caravans because they are great sources of money. If you are not using them, you just are missing great source incomes in the Game.
4- To defeat Lords you need an army, you do not get a decent army since day 1. If you are abusing the game with Khuzait units, you are just using another unbalanced way to play on easy money.

Anyway, the argument about "this is ok because there are other more broken things" is simply silly and unnecessary.

Dunno what to say, you accusing me of lies, because my post didn't go well with you agenda? I was running full Sturgian mercenary campaign without any workshops and caravans for 600 days, I was flowing in money. Any war goes around several castles or towns, you can catch several lords every day around them, and this is very easy, because they are slow and dumb.

Also, I was running full trader campaign for 300 days, 500 mules, buying and selling all goods if they are give me any profit. And I had caravans and workshops running. And, you know, I had much much less money this time, because TW nerfed all income options except battle loot.

Nerfing passive income more will not solve anything, players have excessive money not because of passive income, but from battle loot.

 

[Dabos37]

It's not overpowered, the other workshops are underpowered, stop whining about things being overpowered to prove how elite you are so they get nerfed and suck out all the fun for us medicore players


No, even on easy it's enough of a grind to be able to afford a small band of warriors via trading

Stop calling things OP humble bragger

Well, to be honest, the biggest problem currently is that we do not have difficulty settings for campaign.

 

[Dabos37]

Dunno what to say, you accusing me of lies, because my post didn't go well with you agenda? I was running full Sturgian mercenary campaign without any workshops and caravans for 600 days, I was flowing in money. Any war goes around several castles or towns, you can catch several lords every day around them, and this is very easy, because they are slow and dumb.

Also, I was running full trader campaign for 300 days, 500 mules, buying and selling all goods if they are give me any profit. And I had caravans and workshops running. And, you know, I had much much less money this time, because TW nerfed all income options except battle loot.

Nerfing passive income more will not solve anything, players have excessive money not because of passive income, but from battle loot.

Well, I think you are lying because there is no reason to do not buy Workshops, except if you want to make the game harder. You can get your money back in 30 days or so and continue getting passive money without almost any risk.

I am not saying that there are not other ways to make money, defeating lords are also a great income source but this has not anything to do with Tannery workshops being OP or not.

I do not have any agenda, I am just giving feedback and arguments about whay I find Tannery workshops OP, while you are just talking about how profitable is to defeat lords which is not the point of this threat. Getting 3-5 K passively is too much and It has not anything to do with your arguments about other things that are even more unbalanced. If you find loot income too much, just open a new threat and talk about It.

I personally combine both, passive money (because there is no reason to do not use them if you want more money) and battles, and the result is that I am rich in every campaign I play at day +200 and the game lacks challenge for this.

 

[xdj1nn]

well, we don't pay for fief upgrades, we cannot upgrade villages, and there's that weird "workshop level" **** that doesn't seem to be implemented... All of those look like possible future gold sinks. Then we have the plethora of things that can cost small fortunes, like managing peace treaties, making alliances, bribing to make "trade agreements" (not implemented, not sure if it will be).
TW could also follow WFaS and add ways to level up your companions for a big buck, it could follow on Pendor Mod and add custom outfits, bring on some custom appearances for troops, even custom troops altogether, they could also add mechanics to create your own culture, building stuffs within your fiefs that are apparent (like a fancy room, storage, stables, etc.). They could add actual "royal blacksmiths" that you hire and can craft incredible items for you (including armor)... Pay for ways to raise either focus or attributes, giving a wider range of play-styles for the bored late-game chump....

The list is simply massive. Meanwhile, given we get a plethora of things that should cost lots of gold, none of these nerfs make much sense except for retarded exploit-level income.

That's why, to me, the whole "pLoX nUrFs iZ oP LuLZ" is just ridiculous. And most of the nerfs have already made the game painful in 1.4.1, it's annoying, ridiculously annoying. I'm not even sure if you all are talking about the beta branch, because there it's impossible to have such income.

You people have such a narrow view of things, totally narrow-minded. The amount of "other options" is endless, and nerfing is like a band-aid that just ends up annoying a lot of people when in fact what we need is more things in the game that use gold, meaningful things. Besides, the current state of the game does not support long runs, just embrace the short bursts that go like a flash in-game because after all we're just testing a skeleton, TESTING, NOT ****ING PLAYING.

 

[Bannerman Man]

Am I the only one who's noticed this:

To me that implies that the whole workshop feature is not fully implemented and, maybe we'll see a Level 2 and 3 eventually. So perhaps Level 1 workshop income is not meant to be a viable source of late game income and we're just not seeing the full picture yet. If they get the first layer of balance down, then they can start adding the other layers in on top. I wouldn't worry too much about the income being nerfed.

Edit: Looks like xdj1nn pointed it out just before me haha.

 

[Koshkasa]

I really don't understand why things are being balanced with endgame in mind, because as of right now, when you have all the equipment in the world, several fiefs and 200 dudes in your party, you're still in black each day. After a certain point money has absolutely no use and having +1 gold or +10k gold daily matters jack. I'd argue that point is well before the endgame begins, but we'll dive into subjectivity pretty quickly.
I don't think Tanneries need a direct nerf or other workshops require a direct buff. There's something wonky about goods consumption in general. Economy needs to be reasonable with or without direct player interference, it's a sandbox, afterall.

Whether Tanneries are OP or not depends on how you're playing the game. If you're in it to win it, you can spam win tournaments in every city, sell the crappy axes you get rewarded with and have enough gold to buy a Tannery on day 20, where you end up being a single dude wearing rags riding a donkey with tons of gold daily you're not gonna be spending any time soon.

If you're deliberately avoiding get rich quick schemes, you might end up buying a Tannery with 400 income when you're already past 400 gold daily expenses, so it'll be just a helpful thing to have, not the overpowered money printer some may view it as.

Different playstyles differ so much in the ability to earn money that balancing economy to nerf powerplayers only serves to crap on the already crappy sandcastle casual players have to endure in early game.

 

[Nakh]

Well, I think you are lying because there is no reason to do not buy Workshops, except if you want to make the game harder. You can get your money back in 30 days or so and get passive money without almost any risk.

I am not saying that there are not other ways to make money, defeating lords are also a great income source but this has not anything to do with Tannery workshops being OP or not.

I do not have any agenda, I am just giving feedback and arguments about whay I find Tannery workshops OP, while you are talking about how profitable is to defeat lords which is not the point of this threat. Getting 3-5 K passively is too much and It has not anything to do with your arguments about other things that are even more unbalanced. If you find loot income too much, just open a new threat and talk about It.

I personally combine both, passive money (because there is no reason to do not use them if you want more money) and battles, and the result is that I am rich in every campaign I play at day +200 and the game lacks challenge for this.

This run (all my runs, actually) had some testing goals, one of them was playing without caravans and workshops, on pure battle loot. It is not made game any harder.

Anyway, workshops is no-go for mercenary, since next day I can be at very profitable war with town owner. Caravans too become risky investment, since they are dumb enough to go deep into enemy territory.

I see your point of Tanneries being OP not valid, because in current game state they already give negligible amount of money, compared to battle loot. Other workshop types even worse, they are just nothing, they must be buffed.

 

[xdj1nn]

This run (all my runs, actually) had some testing goals, one of them was playing without caravans and workshops, on pure battle loot. It is not made game any harder.

Anyway, workshops is no-go for mercenary, since next day I can be at very profitable war with town owner. Caravans too become risky investment, since they are dumb enough to go deep into enemy territory.

I see your point of Tanneries being OP not valid, because in current game state they already give negligible amount of money, compared to battle loot. Other workshop types even worse, they are just nothing, they must be buffed.

you clearly aren't talking about 1.4.1

 

[Aerational]

Off the top of my head, because there are a lot of things that provide the raw material it needs.