Why the hell is the Tannery so overpowered?

[Mastigos]

Information gathered by the VARTS Trade Guild mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/337)
I don't have enough good things to say about VARTS, but I will say that it deserved to win the tournament hosted by goodoldgames (GOG).

So... out of all the workshops across all cities in my save file
19 out of the top 20 workshops with the highest profit are all Tanneries!
I can't stress how overpowered this can become. Let me put it this way: only the Tannery was making over 1k per day, and there were two Tanneries that were making - wait for it - over 2k in profits per day.

So not only were Tanneries the safest and most profitable workshop option, but they are the only option that could make OVER DOUBLE the amount of money the next most profitable workshop (smithy) was making at its best (~900 gold per day). The top two Tanneries were over doubling the money that the best Smithy in my game was making! And that Smithy was making far more than the average money a workshop makes per day (200-400 GPD).

TLDR: nerf Tanneries. Again.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

What item does the tannery consume?

 

[stevehoos]

Sounds like more balancing on the way.

 

[xdj1nn]

Information gathered by the VARTS Trade Guild mod (https://www.nexusmods.com/mountandblade2bannerlord/mods/337)
I don't have enough good things to say about VARTS, but I will say that it deserved to win the tournament hosted by goodoldgames (GOG).

So... out of all the workshops across all cities in my save file
19 out of the top 20 workshops with the highest profit are all Tanneries!
I can't stress how overpowered this can become. Let me put it this way: only the Tannery was making over 1k per day, and there were two Tanneries that were making - wait for it - over 2k in profits per day.

So not only were Tanneries the safest and most profitable workshop option, but they are the only option that could make OVER DOUBLE the amount of money the next most profitable workshop (smithy) was making at its best (~900 gold per day). The top two Tanneries were over doubling the money that the best Smithy in my game was making! And that Smithy was making far more than the average money a workshop makes per day (200-400 GPD).

TLDR: nerf Tanneries. Again.

na, stop preaching nerfs, 1.4.1 is already garbage due to that mentality. They should find ways to fix the problem not bandaid it. If they create more expenses it's a good way, if they keep the nerfed stuff and/or continue nerfing stuff the game will be just trash, I mean, I already can barely endure 1.4.1 in Early and Mid game stages due to the constant nerfing. It's simply impossible to avoid "overpowered lulz" by late game, what they can do is add challenge, value to the buck instead.

 

[Badcritter]

For the data the game uses for workshops, see: ..\Steam\steamapps\common\Mount & Blade II Bannerlord\Modules\SandBox\ModuleData\spworkshops.xml

Tanneries turn Hides into Leather, and Leather into armour.

If you mouse over Leather in the market its price is basically always red. ie. apparently Leather is always above its average price. Not quite sure how that works mathematically speaking...

But anyway, Tanneries consume their own production of Leather and between that the and passive consumption of Leather by towns, the game basically seems to never be able to get enough of the stuff. As such, the price of Leather is always high, and so Tanneries make bank.

 

[PeteSKTemplar]

This thread feels like pure provocation. I am already tired to watch for towns with supply of hides to buy tannery for it is only shop I can get around 400 dennars per day regularly. With shop number dependant on your clan level it is just enough to have wages of your party if you are not trying to have just recruits or T2 units. I have to disband garison of castle even clan lvl 4 with 4 tanneries for I have 120 party of high tier for enemy is not about recruits too hoping my militia will grow fast enough or I have to patrol around that long time until militias is in sufficient number there. Forget to buy any armor, best way seems like tournaments I prefer in same culture to get "lore friendly" gear.

I just remember very well how it was in MB where number of shops were one per town unlike here so reading this funny "income stats" I never saw such income from 541 hours of SP play is just provocation. And if this is because of some mod then let mod players have their own thread marked with mod name instead of to provoke vanilla players with bs like 2k per day when I see always around 400.

 

[Badcritter]

Tanneries are an anomaly among workshops, there is something wrong with them because they outperform other workshops in basically every circumstance. That seems like something that needs to be fixed.

The usefulness of how much workshops make in general compared to the rest of the game is a separate issue. I agree workshops are now useless and need to be more profitable, with the possible exception of Tanneries which appear to only be as profitable as they are because of a flawed ratio of production and consumption in their supply chain.

 

[drallim33]

Leather gets used to make everything, horse equipment, melee weapons, armor, shields, even ranged weapons.

    <Production conversion_speed="0.14">
      <Inputs>
        <Input input_item="hardwood" />
        <Input input_item="leather" />
      </Inputs>
      <Outputs>
        <Output output="ItemCategory.ranged_weapons_4" />
      </Outputs>
    </Production>
    <Production conversion_speed="0.07">
      <Inputs>
        <Input input_item="hardwood" />
        <Input input_item="leather" />
        <Input input_item="iron" />
      </Inputs>
      <Outputs>
        <Output output="ItemCategory.ranged_weapons_5" />
      </Outputs>
    </Production>

 

[TurtleFactz]

Tanneries definitely seem to be bugged and need to be nerfed. Making denars is still too easy early/mid/late game.

Seem to almost always be the superior choice regardless of city production, which can't possibly be intended.

 

[drallim33]

I don't think they should be nerfed. It's all the other shops are underpowered. Building a wool weavery is not worth the effort, better to invest the capital in trade goods and manual trade, double your money in a matter of days, instead of waiting two years before you even see any profit.

If you nerf workshops any further they will be useless in the mid/early game and only get bought later when you are already over the hump, just as a bit of bonus income.

 

[TurtleFactz]

I don't think they should be nerfed. It's all the other shops are underpowered. Building a wool weavery is not worth the effort, better to invest the capital in trade goods and manual trade, double your money in a matter of days, instead of waiting two years before you even see any profit.

If you nerf workshops any further they will be useless in the mid/early game and only get bought later when you are already over the hump, just as a bit of bonus income.

Yeah manual trade is super op and needs to be cut down to 1/5 or so of effectiveness

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I only buy shops if I need to remove a brewery for food reasons. I don't understand the fixation with workshops, smithing or caravans when you can just slaughter lords and get huge hauls of loot.
I agree there should be a way to set up passive income to cover daily costs, aside from towns, but I just don;t see it as necessary in the current game.

 

[Sachingare]

The whole point of trading is to make money ... the workshop and caravans are already basically nerfed to uselessness.
Trading should be a viable route to winning the game. So trade should get more bonuses and workshops need to be better.

By making a few companion armies, they give you hundreds or thousasnds of gold each for simply existing. Caravans are expensive in comparison and are a big waste of money and companions when a compaion army is free and gives you WAY more money.

Fighting a few battles can give you many thousands of loot-money every day, so trade should be a equally strong playstile as fighting, instead of making all ways of playing equally bad and unrewarding.

Nerfing everything into the ground and leaving the players only one damned single choice to play the game is not the way to go. Giving the players different options to play the game is great, but if some of those gameplay mechanics are a total waste of time because they are made useless (because there are "exploits") then the fun goes out the window pretty quickly.
Like, every real-life company or businessman who got rich, found a profitable business loophole or wares that are in demand; bought cheap and traded high. Yes, that's how business works, so please keep it in game as well.

15K for a caravan or workshop is a big investment, for maximum 100-200 every day in profits. That's just not worth it.
All caravans and workshops should make at least 1k gold every day. They area a massive investment with a lot of risk (caravans) and you only can buy a limited number, so they should reward you correspondingly.

 

[SirSpiffington]

The only workshops that make over 300 for me consistently are tanner, smithy and brewer with 2+ grain villages. It's at the point now where I don't even check village production around a city and just go for the reliable 2 every time. Even with 2+ villages supplying their necessary input, the other workshops just don't compete.

 

[stevepine]

You clearly never met the 'wood workshop' back in the day

 

[durbal]

Pretty sure this is related to something weird in the code regarding workshops and trade goods. Tanneries take hides as input, and for some reason hides are treated very special in their production speed:

private float FindTotalInputDensityScore(Settlement bornSettlement, WorkshopType workshop, IDictionary<ItemCategory, float> productionDict)
        {
            int num = 0;
            for (int i = 0; i < bornSettlement.GetComponent<Town>().Workshops.Length; i++)
            {
                if (bornSettlement.GetComponent<Town>().Workshops[i].WorkshopType == workshop)
                {
                    num++;
                }
            }
            float num2 = 0f;
            foreach (WorkshopType.Production production in workshop.Productions)
            {
                num2 += production.ConversionSpeed;
            }
            float num3 = 0f;
            foreach (WorkshopType.Production production2 in workshop.Productions)
            {
                foreach (ValueTuple<ItemCategory, int> valueTuple in production2.Inputs)
                {
                    ItemCategory item = valueTuple.Item1;
                    float num4 = (item != DefaultItemCategories.Hides) ? Campaign.Current.Models.VillageProductionCalculatorModel.CalculateProductionSpeedOfItemCategory(item) : 3f;
                    float num5 = 0f;
                    if (productionDict.TryGetValue(item, out num5))
                    {
                        num3 += num5 / num4 * (production2.ConversionSpeed / num2);
                    }
                }
            }
            num3 *= (float)workshop.Frequency * (1f / ((1f + (float)num) * (1f + (float)num) * (1f + (float)num)));
            num3 = (float)Math.Pow((double)num3, 0.800000011920929);
            return num3;
        }

Specifically, look at this part:

foreach (ValueTuple<ItemCategory, int> valueTuple in production2.Inputs)
                {
                    ItemCategory item = valueTuple.Item1;
                    float num4 = (item != DefaultItemCategories.Hides) ? Campaign.Current.Models.VillageProductionCalculatorModel.CalculateProductionSpeedOfItemCategory(item) : 3f;
                    float num5 = 0f;
                    if (productionDict.TryGetValue(item, out num5))
                    {
                        num3 += num5 / num4 * (production2.ConversionSpeed / num2);
                    }
                }

Hides for some reason have a specific production speed of 3 while others are variable.

 

[ParagonWelken]

I can say that having 2 breweries in cities with 2+ input of grain has netted me around 800 denars a day in profits, without anything from my city profits itself. That said, I agree that the trade system is in need of a bit of overhauling. I believe they need to balance it with the cost of gear and the cost of upkeep. I'm not saying you should be rolling in T6 gear within 1 game week, but yeah, it does feel incredibly underwhelming once you get to mid-game and have the troop strength to start openly challenging other lords.

 

[danEN]

Because the game is in early access and still needs to be balanced?

 

[eddiemccandless]

Please let's not encourage more nerfs. I am not saying that there isn't excess money, but nerfs are the wrong direction. We need gold sinks, not gold nerfs. If you nerf everything into oblivion you end up making everything irrelevant. And right now nothing compares with simply fighting and looting for money making purposes.

 

[ParagonWelken]

Please let's not encourage more nerfs. I am not saying that there isn't excess money, but nerfs are the wrong direction. We need gold sinks, not gold nerfs. If you nerf everything into oblivion you end up making everything irrelevant. And right now nothing compares with simply fighting and looting for money making purposes.

I don't ever encourage nerfs. Unless that nerf is to address a massive balance issue that can be exploited only by a select few, nerfing usually only causes more "balancing" to take place once the nerfed item becomes near useless and distracts the devs from proper progression for some time.

And, based on your playstyle/game situation, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there is excess money (though some players seem to have found this), but I would say that the extreme gap in gains vs need is often time slighted a LOT heavier than it should be.

Because the game is in early access and still needs to be balanced?

I'm with you here. It has to be stated that it IS still EA. I am not blind to the fact that the game is still fundamentally being developed. I imagine right now, their focus is getting everything working, "Broken" or not. It'd be far more foolish to invest time into a trade system when half the playerbase is unable to even access said system due to crashes/bugs/other reported issues.

I have hope that the system will be much better the closer we get to live release. For now, just roll our them tanneries (or breweries in my case) and hit the ground running as best you can.