(Vote included) New update and the caravan remains 30. And it was claimed it get supported

[TheWitchIzalith]

But that is a pointless test to run. It has nothing to do with how the game progression works. You do not start with gold for 3 caravans nor the gold for the companions to run them. If you loose one you still make the money with the two other ones.

How long does it take to grind from 0 to 18k + companion gold in real game time?
Then you loose it before it has even made back the investment. Zero profit and zero progression. All that time grinding to 18k wasted and your progression to mid game when you can start taking castles set back by hours.
No one in their right mind would take that risk considering the real life hours it takes to get the gold to have one caravan only to loose it and having to disband your army as you can't afford it anymore and have to start the grind to 18k again.

You can make 25k In the first 10-20 days easily, by trading and poaching looters solo or with companion. The Sturgia Fur Trade routes can net you like 7k Easily. Buy furs in Kranirog. Buy as many as you can + 2 Pack animals. Go to Epicrotea where the price is usually 90+ per fur. Sell a bunch here. Go back to those Fur villages now that you have a decent hunk of cash, buy more furs, and a few more pack animals + keep killing looter parties. Now go sell furs to Empire cities that have Fur value at 100+ (preferably 120-150 +) while still solo / companion killing bandits.

Furs cost 35-65 ish in villages (and even Varcheg or Omor to start) and sell easily for 90+ in most Empire related areas.

Congrats. You have 25k+ in the first couple weeks. If you don't want to trade, why on earth would you be complaining about Trade Caravans.

There are other routes, if you don't want to go to Sturgia. Dates sell extremely cheap in Aserai territory (like 8-15g per) and easily sell for 50+ basically everywhere North of the South Empire. Salt also sells quite well, though I wouldn't buy it in as much bulk.

Like wise, you can buy Silver while crossing the empire from the various mines for less than 110 gold, which also sell for 150+ in various areas, sometimes 200-300.

Getting gold is really only a grind if you stick to just combat, or you are spending too much on Gear upgrades / Companions before you have actual capital to invest in trade. Again, if you don't want to invest in trade, why are you investing in Trade Caravans. If you really want to just buy something to make weekly profit with out ever thinking. Just buy a workshop. I have 2 Workshops (wood and smithy) in Sibil and Varnovapol and am making 750 ish a week no issue.

Edit: And if you are really worried about losing your initial caravan you can literally just protect it yourself for a bit till you make some money. + You can get combat loot along the way.

 

[mexxico]

1. It's nice you have your test here. Communication is always good.
2. Are you in any faction? Mercenary/lord? Have any enemy from minor faction? Major war with all other faction is another thing of course. But currently the AI faction is pretty much always in war with one country (1.10beta). In my experience, the minor factions are the real killer (70% or higher probably). That means after you join a faction, caravans are immediately useless . Hopefully that's not what you want.
3. Average income 1-2k per day is reasonable(what you have in your test). But now it is negative. Didn't do more testing in 1.2 beta and today's update because it is a mess. Selling prisoners should be a game changer since the reason form them to get attacked is not "carrying too much prisoner". Most of them can't survive in the first attack.

Every communities I have seen except some people here disagree with your tweak. (And for lots of them here who agree, the "agree" is with condition like you can hire more troops by yourself) It's not because of they're spoiled. Pottery change on the other hand was not such a problem.

Btw, didn't execute any lord. Days 300+. In war with one faction.

Test done while player is member of Sturgia they were in war with Vlandia. You can send me your save file and I can do tests on that one too.

 

[rottenapple11]

Test done while player is member of Sturgia they were in war with Vlandia. You can send me your save file and I can do tests on that one too.

Interesting. Let me do more test then reply.

 

[peenerz]

I personally don't really care. Caravans were a waste of time pre-patch (I'm literally swimming in cash thanks to battle loot and a few workshops/towns to pay for my army, no need to send my companions to make more), and they are right now due to not being remotely profitable.

This. The only people bawling their eyes out are mad they can't be filthy rich a few days into game

 

[durbal]

But that is a pointless test to run. It has nothing to do with how the game progression works. You do not start with gold for 3 caravans nor the gold for the companions to run them. If you loose one you still make the money with the two other ones.

How long does it take to grind from 0 to 18k + companion gold in real game time?
Then you loose it before it has even made back the investment. Zero profit and zero progression. All that time grinding to 18k wasted and your progression to mid game when you can start taking castles set back by hours.
No one in their right mind would take that risk considering the real life hours it takes to get the gold to have one caravan only to loose it and having to disband your army as you can't afford it anymore and have to start the grind to 18k again.

Disband your army? Man, you have can a decked out 100+ person army and only have to hoboslay a couple looter groups per day to break even.

 

[Ted Striker]

I again tested latest situation by forming 3 different caravans at game start. I give my character 3 caravan forming cost money by cheat and formed 3 caravans, one at Aserai town Quyaz, one at Sturgia town Omor and one at Khuzait town Chaikand. Only one is destroyed at day 15. After 10 days past from the day it is destroyed I formed another caravan from same town. In total I formed 4 caravans. The latest one I formed and two of first three caravans survived at the end of first year. They all bring me 114K, I payed about 30K for caravan wages. In total I ended year with 96K of money just doing nothing but waiting in a town (some money remained from initial money cheats thats why my end money is not fit perfectly). Also still I have 3 caravans running probably they will bring me another 100K until they are destroyed.

Of course situation can change in late game (where bandits are 3x powered) or if you have lots of enemies or if you executed lots of lords in Calradia and if bandits are overpopulated however I made another test this morning in late game (year 1093) too. Situation was not so different, a bit risky than this. Some players get used to earn much from caravans (1K daily for long years like 400 days in total 400K from one caravan) however these caravans are not supposed to feed your armies. These are side mechanics. If you do not like new numbers and risks you do not have to form them. They were so OP before after nerf they are still good, if you see no value you do not have to form them. If player swims in money game become not challanging. We are also aware of lord battles are so easy and give tons of loot they will be fixed too. Different people are responsible from different parts. We are not trying to make game so hard but it should be reasonable not so hard not so easy.

I know game has missing features, some perks are not working, there are less quests less diplomacy options, war peace mechanics are a bit basic currently. Here lots of people are working for a better game in weird world conditions and everybody has their own responsible areas. Any of us cannot fix problems out of our responsible areas. I am trying to make parts which I am responsible better. If you need other things to be fixed before balancing / trade issues you need to reach people responsible from these parts, they are all aware of problems and working hard too. I am here sharing developments with you and getting your ideas / feedbacks to create a better and balanced trade systems.

Any changed formula or game rule is not final point currently. We will collect datas watch gameplays and do needed adjustments in next patches if needed.

We know you want more micro management at parts you are spending time at game. All ideas will be evaluated. According to priority and time we will schedule and implement some of them.

Try a test game on realistic difficulty from day 1 brand new character. Work your way up to affording that first caravan.

Look at how it's affecting the money available in towns too.

 

[shnauser]

You can make 25k In the first 10-20 days easily, by trading and poaching looters solo or with companion. The Sturgia Fur Trade routes can net you like 7k Easily. Buy furs in Kranirog. Buy as many as you can + 2 Pack animals. Go to Epicrotea where the price is usually 90+ per fur. Sell a bunch here. Go back to those Fur villages now that you have a decent hunk of cash, buy more furs, and a few more pack animals + keep killing looter parties. Now go sell furs to Empire cities that have Fur value at 100+ (preferably 120-150 +) while still solo / companion killing bandits.

Furs cost 35-65 ish in villages (and even Varcheg or Omor to start) and sell easily for 90+ in most Empire related areas.

Congrats. You have 25k+ in the first couple weeks. If you don't want to trade, why on earth would you be complaining about Trade Caravans.

There are other routes, if you don't want to go to Sturgia. Dates sell extremely cheap in Aserai territory (like 8-15g per) and easily sell for 50+ basically everywhere North of the South Empire. Salt also sells quite well, though I wouldn't buy it in as much bulk.

Like wise, you can buy Silver while crossing the empire from the various mines for less than 110 gold, which also sell for 150+ in various areas, sometimes 200-300.

Getting gold is really only a grind if you stick to just combat, or you are spending too much on Gear upgrades / Companions before you have actual capital to invest in trade. Again, if you don't want to invest in trade, why are you investing in Trade Caravans. If you really want to just buy something to make weekly profit with out ever thinking. Just buy a workshop. I have 2 Workshops (wood and smithy) in Sibil and Varnovapol and am making 750 ish a week no issue.

Edit: And if you are really worried about losing your initial caravan you can literally just protect it yourself for a bit till you make some money. + You can get combat loot along the way.

I'm about 166h in to Bannerlord now. I have tried all ways of making money early game in countless saves.
The most boring one is running from village to town doing trading like that. Smithing to smelt is a close second. Point was not really "how" more so the real time investment until you can take part in the fun part of the game. Command armies, fight big battles and take castles and such.

For that you need a fixed income to pay the wages. Vassal wage is not high enough. Only way to do that as you make the transition from early to mid is caravans and shops. Chasing looters all the time is not efficient for progression nor is doing tournaments after you have gotten the starter equipment for your self.

Spending 2-3h grinding just to loose it because of RNG is not efficient for your progression and simply prolongs the time it takes to start taking castles and delving in to the politics of the factions. The way caravans are now they are not a viable option as your first fixed income generator. So leaving shops as the only option.

 

[giltirn]

In total I formed 4 caravans.

Thank you for the communication, this kind of discussion with the community is what makes EA worth the effort. Could I suggest that you try with larger statistics than just 4, it is very difficult to form reliable conclusions from such small numbers. With a decent collection of savegames at several states of the game, and say 100 tests we could better gauge the profitability.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

I'm about 166h in to Bannerlord now. I have tried all ways of making money early game in countless saves.
The most boring one is running from village to town doing trading like that. Smithing to smelt is a close second. Point was not really "how" more so the real time investment until you can take part in the fun part of the game. Command armies, fight big battles and take castles and such.

For that you need a fixed income to pay the wages. Vassal wage is not high enough. Only way to do that as you make the transition from early to mid is caravans and shops. Chasing looters all the time is not efficient for progression nor is doing tournaments after you have gotten the starter equipment for your self.

Spending 2-3h grinding just to loose it because of RNG is not efficient for your progression and simply prolongs the time it takes to start taking castles and delving in to the politics of the factions. The way caravans are now they are not a viable option as your first fixed income generator. So leaving shops as the only option.

While I've yet to bother to maintain a Garrison, I have done quite well With only 2 Workshops and an army of 60-80 Mid-higher tier troops living off Battles.

Save money for Workshop > Work as Mercenary > Follow/Join an Army (I personally just join, but if you opt to follow and join battles you control your troops separately instead of AI) get loot. Loot sells for 5-15k Easy. Couple Big battles, Raid a village or two, Attack a weaker lord or two (since mostly Recruit Armies). Congrats. You have 100K. Move on To Vassalage if you want or Swap to Different Mercenary overlord (See the world a bit). Mercenary Lords are also MUCH weaker than regular lords (hidden hand, Lake rats, etc) and provide decent gear, Good units to recruit (or sell) and more importantly ransom for an easy 1-3k. (1k if you just town ransom but up to 3k if you sell to a lord)

I've also Sieged weak Castles to give to my Mercenary Overlords with said 60-80 men. But more often than not, can use a siege to lure a weaker lord near you, to pounce on.

You don't even need to join big battles as a mercenary. You get influence (and thus pay) for killing Bandit parties in the Region your Overlord owns, or are operating. IE Kill bandits in Sturgia get Paid by Sturgia for mercenary work.

I have 115 hours in the game, and by the sounds of it, you are probably just rushing late game stuff instead of enjoying the mid-game grind. We are peasants after all working our way up. Perhaps at release there will be a "Start as lord" option such as in Warband but as it stands we are starting as nobodies.

There is no reason to immediately rush buy a Caravan, before getting a workshop or two. Caravans can be attacked. Its a risk investment. Workshops are not. The reason people were rushing Caravans was because it was an easy way to make stupid amounts of money.

Edit: On the playthrough Im on I am on it is year 3, I played as outlined above, Own the Castle near Epicrotea as a Sturgian Vassal. I have 150k. I spent most of those 3 years doing mercenary work fighting other lords, as a break from my previous trader playthrough.

 

[giltirn]

But that is a pointless test to run. It has nothing to do with how the game progression works. You do not start with gold for 3 caravans nor the gold for the companions to run them. If you loose one you still make the money with the two other ones.

How long does it take to grind from 0 to 18k + companion gold in real game time?
Then you loose it before it has even made back the investment. Zero profit and zero progression. All that time grinding to 18k wasted and your progression to mid game when you can start taking castles set back by hours.
No one in their right mind would take that risk considering the real life hours it takes to get the gold to have one caravan only to loose it and having to disband your army as you can't afford it anymore and have to start the grind to 18k again.

Agreed, 18k is too much to lose until you are very well established.

 

[Nordmann]

This. The only people bawling their eyes out are mad they can't be filthy rich a few days into game

One could turn that around, and say that the only people calling for and supporting these continual economy nerfs, are already filthy rich and thus can be discounted from the discussion entirely. Just saying.

 

[TheWitchIzalith]

One could turn that around, and say that the only people calling for and supporting these continual economy nerfs, are already filthy rich and thus can be discounted from the discussion entirely. Just saying.

I wouldn't say I'm filthy rich. As I've only banked up to 350k (currently 150k) but most of that was through Mercenary / Vassal work selling loot and prisoners. I've had very little interest in sending caravans due to losing a companion (whom I like to RP as my characters well, companions.) I have very little issue with most of the economy nerfs, but also understand they are subject to massive change.

Battles are infinitely better money than Caravans/Workshops and I imagine battles are more of a main course than those two features meant to support war parties.

I suppose from a trader only playthrough yeah they hurt, but a trader only play through makes equally stupid money trading themselves...

 

[Saelius]

I again tested latest situation by forming 3 different caravans at game start. I give my character 3 caravan forming cost money by cheat and formed 3 caravans, one at Aserai town Quyaz, one at Sturgia town Omor and one at Khuzait town Chaikand. Only one is destroyed at day 15. After 10 days past from the day it is destroyed I formed another caravan from same town. In total I formed 4 caravans. The latest one I formed and two of first three caravans survived at the end of first year. They all bring me 114K, I payed about 30K for caravan wages. In total I ended year with 96K of money just doing nothing but waiting in a town (some money remained from initial money cheats thats why my end money is not fit perfectly). Also still I have 3 caravans running probably they will bring me another 100K until they are destroyed.

Of course situation can change in late game (where bandits are 3x powered) or if you have lots of enemies or if you executed lots of lords in Calradia and if bandits are overpopulated however I made another test this morning in late game (year 1093) too. Situation was not so different, a bit risky than this. Some players get used to earn much from caravans (1K daily for long years like 400 days in total 400K from one caravan) however these caravans are not supposed to feed your armies. These are side mechanics. If you do not like new numbers and risks you do not have to form them. They were so OP before after nerf they are still good, if you see no value you do not have to form them. If player swims in money game become not challanging. We are also aware of lord battles are so easy and give tons of loot they will be fixed too. Different people are responsible from different parts. We are not trying to make game so hard but it should be reasonable not so hard not so easy.

I know game has missing features, some perks are not working, there are less quests less diplomacy options, war peace mechanics are a bit basic currently. Here lots of people are working for a better game in weird world conditions and everybody has their own responsible areas. Any of us cannot fix problems out of our responsible areas. I am trying to make parts which I am responsible better. If you need other things to be fixed before balancing / trade issues you need to reach people responsible from these parts, they are all aware of problems and working hard too. I am here sharing developments with you and getting your ideas / feedbacks to create a better and balanced trade systems.

Any changed formula or game rule is not final point currently. We will collect datas watch gameplays and do needed adjustments in next patches if needed.

We know you want more micro management at parts you are spending time at game. All ideas will be evaluated. According to priority and time we will schedule and implement some of them.

I don't have a problem with how much the caravan earns now. I have a problem with how annoying it is to form it again, going to get your companion, returning to a safe city etc.

I'm with Vlandia in really late game 70+ hrs, frequently at war with everyone (only Sturgia, and two of the three Empires have disappeared), and neither the caravans nor my companion's parties last more than a couple of days.

 

[Leviathonlx]

This. The only people bawling their eyes out are mad they can't be filthy rich a few days into game

To be honest a lot of the 'no more nerfs!' type posts I see are basically people mad something they were using to cheese the game got fixed (the clay thing for example).

 

[rottenapple11]

Test done while player is member of Sturgia they were in war with Vlandia. You can send me your save file and I can do tests on that one too.

summer8 started with 7 caravans
summer 9 6
summer 15 5
summer 16 4
summer 19 3
autumn 1 2
autumn 4 1
autumn 19 +4 5
winter 21 4
spring 2 3
summer 9 2


Very interesting. So what likely to happen is that because in the start most of the players use saved games, all caravans are over the 30 limit (still have more or less 40 since it has passed about 2 weeks I guess), they move significantly slower than original and and they're not strong enough to defend themself so they got wiped out in one or two weeks. That's majority of the complain (including mine) came from.


After that, things get more tolerable. About every 18 days you lose one caravan. That's about 1.5-2% lost rate per day roughly (more or less 1.8%). And because of I have fiefs, calculating the income doesn't really works. Given that the average income 600 and wages 150, the average living period 50 to 66 days would give you 20k to 25k, a profit of -2k to 5k if 10 days in the beginning are pure input. Using 1.8% it will be 0.5k.
Worth it? @mexxico



At war pretty much all the time with one major faction, 4 minors. No mods influencing the perks or the movement or the strength of the lords/bandits.

 

[rottenapple11]

To be honest a lot of the 'no more nerfs!' type posts I see are basically people mad something they were using to cheese the game got fixed (the clay thing for example).

The real "cheesy" thing are the smithing. A weapon with cost of 100 can sell over 60k. And that wasn't fixed at all.

 

[mexxico]

summer8 started with 7 caravans
summer 9 6
summer 15 5
summer 16 4
summer 19 3
autumn 1 2
autumn 4 1
autumn 19 +4 5
winter 21 4
spring 2 3
summer 9 2


Very interesting. So what likely to happen is that because in the start most of the players use saved games, all caravans are over the 30 limit (still have more or less 40 since it has passed about 2 weeks I guess), they move significantly slower than original and and they're not strong enough to defend themself so they got wiped out in one or two weeks. That's majority of the complain (including mine) came from.
After that, things get more tolerable. About every 18 days you lose one caravan. That's about 1.5-2% lost rate per day roughly (more or less 1.8%). And because of I have fiefs, calculating the income doesn't really works. Given that the average income 600 and wages 150, the average living period 50 to 66 days would give you 20k to 25k, a profit of -2k to 5k if 10 days in the beginning are pure input. Using 1.8% it will be 0.5k.
Worth it? @mexxico

At war pretty much all the time with one major faction, 4 minors.

Thanks for test. Can you send me your save file if possible? I will examine your world situation.

You find daily caravan death ratio about 1.8% (probably late game)
In my tests I find this ratio 0.2% (early game) / 1.2% (late game)

Lots of samples show us at 1.1.0 & 1.2.0 versions daily death probability of one caravan changes between 0.2-2% according to world situation. In some cases making caravan is so profitable in some cases it is not. So if you will form a caravan your current situation (number of enemies, bandit / hideout population, game year, minor faction power) all is need to be evaluated. Previously caravans were all time nearly safe. I will continue collecting data and try to find out high risk situations and make things better.

By the way to the complains about smithing : I did not implemented these parts so I have lack of information at smithing codes, do not want to spread so much and try to focus my areas. Sorry for cannot fixing it. People here are aware of related problems.

 

[Nordmann]

To be honest a lot of the 'no more nerfs!' type posts I see are basically people mad something they were using to cheese the game got fixed (the clay thing for example).

Personally, I sold my useless deadbeat workshops ages ago, and never even bothered with caravans. I now have close to 500k, and have probably spent another 500k on kitting out my character and companions. This is purely from battles, selling loot, and ransoming prisoners.

I see no reason to use workshops or caravans in their current incarnation, the money you spend on them can be better spent on your party and personal equipment.

 

[rottenapple11]

Thanks for test. Can you send me your save file if possible? I will examine your world situation.

You find daily caravan death ratio about 1.8% (probably late game)
In my tests I find this ratio 0.2% (early game) / 1.2% (late game)

Lots of samples show us at 1.1.0 & 1.2.0 versions daily death probability of one caravan changes between 0.2-2% according to world situation. In some cases making caravan is so profitable in some cases it is not. So if you will form a caravan your current situation (number of enemies, bandit / hideout population, game year, minor faction power) all is need to be evaluated. Previously caravans were all time nearly safe. I will continue collecting data and try to find out high risk situations and make things better.

By the way to the complains about smithing : I did not implemented these parts so I have lack of information at smithing codes, do not want to spread so much and try to focus my areas. Sorry for cannot fixing it.

save_017.sav

drive.google.com

The start

save_auto.sav

drive.google.com

The end. (It crashes so not sure exactly which date is that.)

 

[adrakken]

I voted 1 because I fixed it from modding...let them adjust as time allows as there are more pressing matters to work on. Just as long as its on the to-do list for the future.