Which leveling system do you prefer Warband or Bannerlord?

[Niomedes]

A really easy fix for most of the issue here could be that each level rewards both an attribute and a focus point, and that each attribute point should lead to a general increase in addition to faster learning speed:

• Vigor: More HP and a small general increase to all meele speed and damage
• Control: A small increse to all ranged accuracy and damage
• Endurance: More Smithing stamina, and a small increse to running and riding
• Cunning: a small increase to all connected skills
• Social: a small increase to all connected skills, and a higher success chance on Barter and persuasion
• Intelligence: Faster learning across the board for all skills, even those connected to another attribute and a small increase to all connected skills.

I realise that this is a relatively minor change, as it simply means that attribute points -in addition to a minor special property but without the learning limit increase- do the same as focus points do, but for all skills connected to them instead of just one, but that alone would already remove quite a few of the current issues, and speed the grind up tremendeously.

 

[Negative]

I think you are over reacting. Of course no one likes to craft 10000 daggers. That's why the mechanisms must be rebalanced and optimized.

Would you object to this system, if it worked as follows?

To unlock tier 1 blades, craft or smelt 10 blades
To unlock tier 1 pommels, craft or smelt 10 pommels
etc...

Don't tell me that crafting 10-20 items is tedious to you...

Also, you think you can jump into the game and design a good sword at once? Crafting a good sword for your level should be a reward for sitting and trying to learn the craft, not something you can achieve in the first 20 minutes of the game.

That has nothing to do with balance. The simple truth is that there's no gameloop to master with smithing. Crafting the first blade is literally just like crafting the 10th. So what do you want to be rewarded for? There's no learning curve, no investment other than time - through repetition.

But the whole discussion is deviating from the skill system (with bad caps, overtly complex point systems and it's overal problems) towards smithing speficially. So let me just tell you, that yes, i expect to bypass that system. As it's not rewarding anything. And i only think it's resonable to be able to find and hire actual smiths to forge weapons regarding to the specifications of their liege/employer at some point in the game - even if it would costs thousands of denars.

 

[ErrorMcJigg]

I'd much rather be out fighting battles, to earn xp, to learn skills, that help me more effectively fight bigger battles, to earn xp, to learn skills, that help me more effecively...

You get the ideal? That's Warband in a nutshell.

Bannerlord in a nutshell? Buy stuff from merchants and click craft a few times, then wait while watching youtube, repeat for ten hours. Then ride in circles for a few hours while buying lots of food types.... then play a barter mini game for a few hours.... then play the trade mini game for a few hours...then play the auto resolve mini game for a few hours...

It's just ****ing boring man. It gets worse on replay as well.

I think that's on you then, you're choosing to power level specific skills.

 

[vonbalt]

I liked warband's system but i like bannerlord's even more, just need to be adjusted/balanced a bit an it will be great in my opinion, i prefer this elder scrolls style of leveling what you use much more than gathering generic exp and using it how you see fit.

 

[Draa Gul]

I do not want to skim through the thread to see if someone perhaps already said this but:

Perhaps level ups should be tied to a general XP score that you gain from killing foes, winning battles, training (passive from the Leadership skilled companion / main character with a higher level), and doing quests.

Those level ups give you attribute points andfocus points as they do right now.

The skill points are gained by actually applying the skill.

If we separate the level ups and the skill points from each other, then we would erase the strange situation of "If I want to raise my skill cap in X skill, I have level up. In order to get another level up, I have to gain more skill points, so I need to use skills I do not want to use / learn." In my opinion that would make the current system much easier to use, because we would get more focus points and attribute points to pump into the skills we actually want to use, without having to worry about acquiring tons of skills elsewhere to get the level up in the first place.

 

[Cepheiden]

Has anyone else crunched the numbers on this?

Yes.
As I have already written in the first thread about the leveling system, simple math shows that the player will never reach a serviceable amount of skill points.

Since we don't know when Taleworlds is going to change that, I have thought of a simple solution that might be doable with some editing of files, while still keeping the system limited enough.
Basically all that is needed, is to set the effective base limit of each skill to 50 points.
That way there are enough skill points to reach a bit more than level 30 and also to theoretically reach 275 points in 6 skills out of 180 in 2 categories out of 6, while still being able to reach a usable level in anything necessary.
A practical example build would be, maxing 2 skills in 2 categories and also obtaining high levels of around up to around 200 points in a handful of more skills. So one could max archery and riding for a horse archery build and then also learn high enough levels of leadership to actually lead a big army, some melee skills as well as athletics to not suck in combat on foot and then another 1 or 2 skills according to the players needs like smithing, trading, roguery or whatever. At the same time the player also could get at least a bit useful in everything.
That way NPCs also could train a bit faster.

That being said, this solution obviously doesn't fix the inherent flaws of this system, i.e. being forced to use all skills without even wanting to, speed multipliers, the process of increasing skills, arbitrary attribute points and the absolutely retarded perks. It would be just quick and dirty solution to provide some balanced fun to everyone, compared to the garbage we have right now.

 

[Revenant342]

Honestly I feel like skill caps are pointless and arbitrary in a game where your character will die of old age eventually. That's balance enough.

 

[Tiberius_Invictus]

Since we don't know when Taleworlds is going to change that, I have thought of a simple solution that might be doable with some editing of files, while still keeping the system limited enough.
Basically all that is needed, is to set the effective base limit of each skill to 50 points.
That way there are enough skill points to reach a bit more than level 30 and also to theoretically reach 275 points in 6 skills out of 180 in 2 categories out of 6, while still being able to reach a usable level in anything necessary.
A practical example build would be, maxing 2 skills in 2 categories and also obtaining high levels of around up to around 200 points in a handful of more skills. So one could max archery and riding for a horse archery build and then also learn high enough levels of leadership to actually lead a big army, some melee skills as well as athletics to not suck in combat on foot and then another 1 or 2 skills according to the players needs like smithing, trading, roguery or whatever. At the same time the player also could get at least a bit useful in everything.
That way NPCs also could train a bit faster.

That being said, this solution obviously doesn't fix the inherent flaws of this system, i.e. being forced to use all skills without even wanting to, speed multipliers, the process of increasing skills, arbitrary attribute points and the absolutely retarded perks. It would be just quick and dirty solution to provide some balanced fun to everyone, compared to the garbage we have right now.

Which files did you edit to achieve this?

 

[Shrugging Khan]

I also don't like the hard caps.

 

[Swasjmat]

I prefer the new one, despite it beeing somewhat flawed and broken. It definetly needs an overhaul. Personally I would remove levels, make attributes fixed, remove skill caps and move perks from skills and make them global (something like this horse archer perk = 20 bow + 20 riding, slavetrader perk = 30trading + 40 rougery etc).
XP and levels are fun in games like Diablo and Baldurs gate when you get fireballs and whirvelwind attacks when you level up. Level up in Mount and Blade to get + 5 hp and 2% weapon damage is about as fun and rewarding as updating a spreadsheet in excel.
I would simply play the game the way I want to and getting better at the things I am doing. In warband most of my companions rarely leveled up beyond level 10-15, because I found it too much of an effort for too little gain, and if I did I would just assign skillpoints at random.

 

[Wolfsblut]

I am curious to see how many people actually played Warband during the beta (before 2010), or even the original M&B when it was still a shareware. Myself i was pretty not happy with Warband release, many features were there but not polished. And it took them many years for them to make Warband the great game it is now.

This is the same with Bannerlord, exept that this game has MUCH more feature than Warband had when initially released. Above all the UI is, and i guess most will admit it, absolutly fabulous. And having played M&B since 15 years i can say (just my opinion) that this one is the best, unpolished for sure, but a SOLID base for improvement, thanks to player input (like this thread).
So any random guy (even if random veteran) coming here to say, hey scrap the game, i prefer old working stuff, sorry but i tend to not listen to Stick to your old stuff and let others enjoy the game as flawed as it is, and promising as it could be. I prefer constructive post with people expressing their thought on how to improve the game leveling system (this is for OP), and not just scrap this, it sucks, before was better and such (his previous reaction with the REFUNDED thread)...

I remember Warbands release very well (playing M&B since 0.8 )
We shared the feelings about it, i can tell you that.
The bloody mess we got now crash- bug and balancewise was completly to expect and i don't care much about that.

Still the levelling system is a bummer for me.
In my eyes it is a downgrade, from what we had in M&B and Warband.
This was honestly a part of the game where i didn't saw much room for improvement anyway.
Perksystem is restrictive, perks are 50/50 complete bollocks.
I just hope that at least the cap on the skills is not hard capped and... uff... i don't know
how to fix that **** with the "learning by doing" for the non combat skills.
This is so out of touch that i try not to think about it.

Most of the other stuff only needs time though, you're completly right there.
I think i didn't played Warband that much in the first 6 months.

And this one is looking so beautiful
Even if i never play it, it was worth the money as walkingsimulator for towns and castles while the snow is falling.

 

[Cepheiden]

Which files did you edit to achieve this?

No that is just a theoretical solution that would be possible if I or anyone else can find a file that allows to effectively set a higher base limit in skill points.

Basically I forgot to ask the question: Does anyone know if that is possible?

 

[Ocean Rain]

Hard cap needs to go, static HP needs to go, TW should bring back more RPG and freedom approach instead of pure action and limitations.

 

[stevehoos]

Hard cap is/would be just one the countles ways they tried to remove the sandbox aspect out of the game.
I really hope i am just starting to get paranoid about that.

Its hard to say though, for you feel already from 100+ like zero points in Weapon Master in Warband.



Lets say if that is a part of the game that they reworked a couple of times during those years, i really don't
want to see the attempts that was worse.

I am paranoid too about the anti sandbox hold your hand features like caps, I haven't liked this direction from the start. This game feels more and more like a linear RPG. Limited number of shops, limited number of companions, this design is constantly interfering with the player's free will. I am not getting that vibe of complete freedom that Warband offered. I feel rushed.

 

[Ocean Rain]

I am paranoid too about the anti sandbox hold your hand features like caps, I haven't liked this direction from the start. This game feels more and more like a linear RPG. Limited number of shops, limited number of companions, this design is constantly interfering with the player's free will. I am not getting that vibe of complete freedom that Warband offered. I feel rushed.

+1... or maybe even +100.

Again, I will show you my proposition of leveling and perk system, tell me what you think:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/progression-system-suggestion.402104/#post-9287350

 

[Midnitewolf]

I now own two nice warhorses (and a camel) that I won in tournaments. They all require 90 riding skill. My character will most likely die of old age before he ever has the riding skill to use them. Getting skill on polearms seems to work okay. Getting skill in riding, not so much.

Yeah I feel your pain. In my game, which is almost over by the way due to the kingdom I aligned myself with having almost conquered the entire map, I am still at 56 riding and can't use a Warhorse. I also haven't broken 80 points in either 1-hd or Polearm, the ONLY two weapons I use. I am also like level 17. Then there is engineering, by the time I am decent at engineering, I won't need the skill because there will be nothing left to siege. Charm sucks because there is only a very few activities that gain you charm, hell the only thing I found was releasing lords because don't quests or other interactions with NPCs doesn't seem to do anything. Then there is leadership which I can't skill up until I get to the point I can actually outfit a party and/or am a vassal. Finally I have no clue how to get the medicine skill up.

Basically the entire skill system needs a re-tune at least as far as how fast the skill goes up when you have significant points invested in it.

As far as the hard cap, there isn't one. I have noticed many times now where a capped skill has increased. In fact if you look at the skill, the multiplier is still there, it is however very, very small, like 0.4 or something. That still does change the fact that the current system need tweaked badly.

 

[Jhaerik]

I think that's on you then, you're choosing to power level specific skills.

It's not that I'm choosing to do so... it's simply the only way to raise the damn things. It's unnatural as all hell.

 

[Jhaerik]

I do not want to skim through the thread to see if someone perhaps already said this but:

Perhaps level ups should be tied to a general XP score that you gain from killing foes, winning battles, training (passive from the Leadership skilled companion / main character with a higher level), and doing quests.

Those level ups give you attribute points andfocus points as they do right now.

The skill points are gained by actually applying the skill.

If we separate the level ups and the skill points from each other, then we would erase the strange situation of "If I want to raise my skill cap in X skill, I have level up. In order to get another level up, I have to gain more skill points, so I need to use skills I do not want to use / learn." In my opinion that would make the current system much easier to use, because we would get more focus points and attribute points to pump into the skills we actually want to use, without having to worry about acquiring tons of skills elsewhere to get the level up in the first place.

Honestly any of a half dozen proposed ideas in this thread alone would be better than what we got. It's why it completely boggles my mind why we got what we did. Anyone with 5 minutes and 2 brain cells could have came up with a better system, or at least a more functional version of the current system.

 

[bodhi]

I should read this thread, but I have no time. I just want to say that I hope the devs do not go the route of God-teir end-game characters - where your character ultimately becomes good at EVERY skill/ability in the game. A good RPG skill system should force the player to think about the design of his character and take into consideration a limited number of skill points. You want your character to be a master Horse-Archer with maxed related skills/abilities? Well, ok, just don't expect him to be a heavy melee hitting tank (obvious example).

 

[xnao`]

Level difficulty:

Easy: Stewardship (different food)

Normal: Weapons, Rougery (pillaging villages)

Possible: Horse, Healer(but useless), Smith(stamina), athletics, Engineering, Leadership(clan lvl2), Tactics

Impossible: Charm

Can gain charm when you release lords after a battle. Got 6 points in 12 or so lords.