[WPL2] Suggestions
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feel that would be better
Scar said:
Fidel Lagstro said:
We wanted to change the the EU side aswell. However the picks and bans were done on the EU side immediately so it was too late, we couldn't make the EU side re-do their picks and bans because it exposes teams choices. I suppose you could say that if that's the case don't bother with the NA side as well. But the whole idea is to have the best possible map pool for the finals. And I didn't feel as though we did in previous weeks.
Other key things to take note of:
1. No single-elimination map pool was ever announced, it said quarter finals, semi finals, and so on. The reason this was done is because I didn't want the same pool every week. I wanted the best possible pool for the finals, and that allows it to change.
2. Neither Calamity or I (the affected parties) had influence over the final decision to change this, we had every admin vote on the matter excluding us. So shouting bias here doesn't really hold any weight (Not saying you said that but just stating it in general)
3. Teams affected by this change were made aware with it. All the captains involved put in their input on the change, there's a reason why it took OE and wK a whole week to do picks and bans.
4. An NA match has already been played under the current pool aswell.
There's no reason to keep something the same because it's always been the same. I think that's backward logic, you should always want to progress and improve.
Also the time to complain about that isn't after you do a pick and ban, it's before it. Like I said, both teams were made aware of it prior to the change. By consenting to a pick and ban, you essentially agree to the map pool. What seems skecthy here is that you bring this up after doing the picks and bans Lag. One could assume there is some hidden agenda at play there aswell.
I mean if I really wanted to have an advantage over wK why would I even agree to an extension, we didn't need it. Like, Lag pls.
Just throwing some friendly shade, there's obviously no way for me to know for certain whether there were any biased actions at play, but that doesn't really take away from the fact that having EU and NA play with different map pools is less-than-ideal tournament execution, regardless of which individual or group of individuals allowed it to happen. Unfortunate that this couldn't have resolved itself earlier before any matches were played, but alas, some of the matches have already been played RIP.
TBH though, I didn't even know that the NA and EU map pools were different until Scar mentioned it, I just remember having thought it was weird that the maps were changed with the stated reason "to spice things up" (which you ended up editing out) which seemed kind of random, which isn't really something I would expect from you or this tournament. Not that I don't personally like random though, I had no problem with the maps being changed a little for the finals, but now that I hear that the NA and EU pools weren't even the same, that seems kind of lame and to some degree, potentially unfair to all teams participating in the finals, and since we (wK and OE) barely did picking yesterday, I imagine it wouldn't be hard for us to readjust the map pool and re-do picks for the sake of uniformity across the grand finals, but it's fine whichever way it goes, we're going to win anyway
TBH though, I didn't even know that the NA and EU map pools were different until Scar mentioned it, I just remember having thought it was weird that the maps were changed with the stated reason "to spice things up" (which you ended up editing out) which seemed kind of random, which isn't really something I would expect from you or this tournament. Not that I don't personally like random though, I had no problem with the maps being changed a little for the finals, but now that I hear that the NA and EU pools weren't even the same, that seems kind of lame and to some degree, potentially unfair to all teams participating in the finals, and since we (wK and OE) barely did picking yesterday, I imagine it wouldn't be hard for us to readjust the map pool and re-do picks for the sake of uniformity across the grand finals, but it's fine whichever way it goes, we're going to win anyway
Fidel Lagstro said:
Gotcha, I agree it isn't ideal. But it is what it is.
As for the spice things up part, that was when I originally wanted to have 6 maps in the pool on each side instead of 5. But upon further thought it wasn't a good idea, so it was revoked.
Anyways, I'd like to take this time to bring forward some discussion to see what the community thinks about the following. It's a good time to discuss this since the OE vs. wK finals were extended, essentially leaving the top 4 EU teams and 2 NA teams on a BYE.
OGL said:
^
Does anyway have a problem with playing the international stage this way? Does anyone see a better solution?
edit: I'll put up a UK server, so NA's get test ping there.
Ron Burgundy
Arys said:
Seems reasonable to me, but i would like to have the teams test pings on NY FRA and UK before deciding if possible. Should be pretty simple to have team members report their pings to captains and have the captains report that data to tournament admins. Ideally teams could figure it out themselves, but judging from past cross-region tournaments it will likely be easier to skip that step.
Maybe that is too much overhead for some people though, what do the other captains think?
[quote author=EU finals map pool]CLOSED:Orion said:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Legacy Town
Mountain Fortress
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven[/quote]
???
Don't play hell with what was originally my idea. If you're going to have two divisions under the same tournament, they need to play by the same rules. Otherwise, why bother with the organizational headache?
And why now? EU was already finished, and NA quarters & semis were already done on the same map pool as EU. You're changing the rules (and let's be honest, Arys, it's pretty much just you) at the 11th hour, before a match you will personally be playing in, for actual prize money, and with no precedent to back it up. But hey, your ethics aren't really my concern here. What is my concern is that you're gambling with my idea, and I trusted you with that idea. If I didn't, I never would have offered it to you. I did that so you could trial-run it, because I wanted to see how it would fare without putting in all the work myself, and before I committed to doing it in Bannerlord. Now my only data point is about to be ruined by one guy making a last-minute power grab.
So, I'm asking this in earnest and out of genuine curiosity: why are you changing the rules of play at the last minute before the last match for just one side of the tournament? Why is a heretofore symmetric tournament now asymmetric, and do you have any reason that does not stem from personal gain?
And while we're on the subject of 11th hour rule changes, why is there no longer a prize split between 1st & 2nd place? I seem to recall $1000 for first and $500 for second.
[/quote]
I wish there was a facepalm emoji for times like these.
Marnid, did you atleast try to look for an explanation?
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,357766.msg8659922.html#msg8659922
Read the post there, and no the prize pool was never split like that. It's always been winner takes all, it was like that in the first WPL as well.
NOTE: I moved the post here instead of it being in the other thread, so that discussion can continue here if needed. I don't want to clutter up that thread.
That link leads back to this page.
I thought I remember second place getting a cut of the money as well, though.
I thought I remember second place getting a cut of the money as well, though.
The_Troubadour said:
Fixed the link, and there wasn't. I'm not opposed to discussing it though. Would you guys rather have it split like that or split in some other sort of way?
But it'd be pretty ****ty to change the split now, after AE has already won the grand finals. So keep that in mind.
Sure did! Guess what, it doesn't change anything!Arys said:
Maybe you do need a lecture on ethics, but let's talk about why your reasons are bull**** first.
I bolded the important part here, because the best possible map pool for the finals is the map pool that has already been used for that purpose in that same tournament. You say EU was too quick, well then pull up your pants and be a big boy about it. Not everything goes your way, and in the interest of fairness you should have accepted that they were too fast for you & let it go at that.
Care to give us some transparency here? I'd like to see how the topic was introduced, any discussion the admins had on it, and how they all voted. I'd be particularly interested in how much you were involved in the discussion. Plus, where's the announcement? A rule change necessitates putting pen to paper, and even if you're the one holding the pen there should have been something mentioning this to the public. You can make decisions behind closed doors, but before they're put into action you have to let everyone else know. The change itself is underhanded, trying to slide it in without anybody noticing is sneaky and screams guilt. Also, sidenote, the "affected parties" aren't just you and Calamity. See your own #4.
Everyone needs to be made aware of it, and that wasn't done. Plus, this isn't how rule changes are done. Getting input from captains and players is great, but they're not the decision-makers here. Again, I'd like to see the admin discussion that took place regarding this rule change, but I bet it starts off with "I already talked to wK about it and they're cool with it, so if you guys wanna just yes-man me on this that'd be great." Having been a part of wK in the past and knowing them as well as I do, I doubt they were onboard with this, but I guess we'd have to ask them.
Which doesn't make it any more legitimate! If your argument here is that "well, a match has already been played with this map pool" then why is that not also valid when we consider the original/EU map pool? Matches were already played with that one, in fact the majority of the single-elimination matches were. Explain your situational logic for me, because I don't see how anyone would consider this fair and I'm honestly excited to see you prove it to me.
Hah! You're actually a ****in' idiot if you believe that rule changes in the middle of a tournament are progressive or improvements. They screw the validity of the entire tournament because the playing field is no longer level. When you're just playing for funsies and bragging rights that's one thing, but when there's money on the line the most important quality a tournament can have is consistency. If everything is the same from start to finish, you can point to the winners and say with no reservations "this team is the best at this thing at this time." Now that you've changed the rules of the game, all we can say is "two teams won on this map pool, all the others played a different map pool." Tell me how that's progress or an improvement, please. I'm dying to know.
Pure deflection. Any time is the right time to complain, you can't censor criticisms. Can we also realize that Lag isn't the team captain, and thus may not be privy to all the information you claim he should have had? Also, this whole "consenting to pick and ban means you agree to the map pool" thing is the first somewhat logical thing you've said, but that's not what's actually being argued here. It's fine in principle, but when the map pool is changed at a whim by people with a personal stake then it's complicated.
"I'm not racist, I have a friend who's black." Just because you didn't try to screw them once doesn't mean you never tried to screw them or won't try to screw them in the future.
Ron Burgundy
Time to surrender Arys. Against the unending text walls of Marnid, there can be no victory.
This is true, but is also irrelevant.Tardet said:Having the capacity to write a lot doesn't meant what you're saying is any relevant
Orion said:
The whole premise of this argument stands on the fact that we changed some rule when no rule change ever occurred. I find it hillarious that you decided to quote everything I posted except for this;
Arys said:
I'll put it in simpler terms, there was never a single elimination map pool. This was done on purpose to provide us with flexibility with the map pool. The map change announcement your looking for is the posting of the thread which takes place for the the week of the match starts.
Orion said:
1. Matches were not already done in the EU map pool, picks and bans were done. I think you're under the assumption that these map changes took place a few days before the match. No, they took place two weeks before this upcoming grand finals match.
2. Like I said no rule change took place. But I don't think it's idiotic to change rules in the middle of the tournament if said changes betters the tournament. I think it's idiotic to think the opposite.
3. "Two teams won on this map pool, all others played a different map pool"- what? How does that even make any sense? Are you referring to the EU teams that played on a different map pool? Are you referring to the teams that lost in the quarter and semi finals? The teams that beat them aren't better because they won a different pool in a later week? Like it doesn't make any ****ing sense. The teams that beat them beat them playing with the same map pool they did, what said teams do in another week isn't relevant to them. And If you are reffering to the EU teams, this stage of the tournament is not when you find out whether the NA teams or better than the EU teams, that's the international stage when they play against each other. The winner of the grand finals match tomorrow proves they are the best team in the region despite the map changes, because the two teams in the finals have played in the same map pool throughout the whole tournament.
4. The map pool change decision wasn't made by people with a personal stake, so it's not complicated.
As for providing transperancy, I'm completely fine with doing so. I really don't have anything to hide. We discussed all of this thoroughly. So if any player that has participated in the tournament would like some, just shoot me a PM and I'll respond with our discussion logs.
Now since you were so kind and decided to give me a free lesson on ethics and adminstration, I'd like to return the favor by submitting a thesis to you on why you're some senile idiot trying to stay relevant.
Arys said:
Just noticed that once again you say EU was already finished - I'll mention this again since you probably will miss it the first time I mention it. The NA map pool changes did not take place after the EU matches were complete, it took place before them.
Anyways, back to my thesis. If you noticed, I bolded all the parts where you mention how you gave me your precious idea. If I remember correctly when you first presented the idea, everyone ignored it. And then a few pages later, Lagstro proposed the idea (not knowing that you had already posted it) and then it came into the spotlight and everyone started discussing it. Marnid, this isn't your idea, you don't have any claim to it. Competitive gaming has been doing regional and international splits for ages before you decided to make your post "introducing" the idea. Do you honestly think that nobody would think of doing the same in a international tournament? Like c'mon, get a grip dude.
-
The map pool is determined by the rules, and yes there was a single elimination map pool. The map pool was changed form the regular season by shortening it, which made it your single elimination map pool. It's the map pool that was in use for quarterfinals and semifinals, which makes it reasonable to assume that the same map pool would be in use for the finals. It was also the map pool used for picks & bans in the EU final. You have said this yourself. You have no leg to stand on here, because the map pool was changed for the purpose of the single elimination and that altered map pool was used for the first two rounds of matches, which by your own logic means it's the map pool we should stick with because matches in this final sequence have already been played with it.
Can we talk about how your argument that it was changed before the EU match took place is entirely irrelevant? You said their picks & bans already took place so you let them stand as they were. That's just another way of saying "this change only comes into play after their match." Sure, chronologically the map pool changed before their finals match took place, but it was not the map pool they used when they decided what to pick & ban for their match. This is just semantics to distract everyone from what's important. What are you even trying to do with this point? Discredit me while ignoring the validity of my criticism?
This is more semantics, but here instead of using semantics to try and confuse things you're ignoring semantics for the sake of your own argument. The maps which are legal to play on is established by the rules, and while one change of the map pool was explicitly accounted for and used, a second one was not. You can argue this is up to interpretation of the rules, but if that's the case then you need to have a sit-down heart-to-heart with all the admins on your team and ask them if changing the map pool in the middle of the single elimination is in the spirit of the rule that allows you to change the map pool at the beginning of the single elimination phase.
What kind of smokescreen **** is this? I can prove this is factually incorrect in every way.
If you will allow me to provide screenshots as well as text quotes, here you go:
CLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Mountain Fortress
Legacy Town
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven
CLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Mountain Fortress
Legacy Town
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven
As we can clearly see, the EU side had the same map pool throughout. This is not in question, but I have provided it for comparison. Now we're going to look at the NA side a little out of order, starting with the semis.CLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Legacy Town
Mountain Fortress
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven
Ordering of closed maps in the list aside, this is identical to the EU map pool.CLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Mountain Fortress
Legacy Town
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven
Here's something I didn't expect. The quarters map pool for NA doesn't match the semis map pool or the finals pool. We can see that Nord Town in the quarters was replaced by Mountain Fortress in the semis. This is the only change between quarters and semis.CLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Nord Town
Legacy Town
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Castellum
River Village
Frosthaven
And here we can see that the open map list, unchanged up to this point for NA and EU, has swapped Castellum for Ruins, and the NA semis switched Mountain Fortress out for Nord Town (again). Sorry for the title bar of the finals post being cut off, but there's an errantCLOSED:
Fort of Honor
Verloren
San'di'boush
Nord Town
Legacy Town
OPEN:
Reveran Village
Field by the River
Ruins
River Village
Frosthaven
Moving
On
Until you provide proof to the contrary in public where it can be reviewed by everyone (including those involved) then I won't believe that for an instant. You have a personal stake, so naturally you would say this if you had done anything unscrupulous. At this point you cannot be trusted because you are the one whose trustworthiness is being called into question.
Do it in public. You can edit the contents of a PM sent by one person before copy-pasting it to another, and nobody would be the wiser. The whole point of transparency is to be open to scrutiny by the public, so if you claim to support transparency then you should post that discussion in public. What do you have to hide, anyway?
I do have claim to it, you clearly don't know how intellectual property works. I put it out there first, therefore it's mine. It really is that simple. Lag reposting it doesn't make it his idea, and the fact that nobody had attempted it before in this scene is enough for me to be able to claim it as mine here. I never claimed it was mine universally. Besides, all of this is irrelevant to you screwing it up in such scummy fashion. You keep trying to deflect and misdirect, but you haven't given us any reason to believe you're not at fault here for manipulating rules for your own personal gain.
