Winter warfare

[Ruler of Calradia]

So, winter warfare. There are multiple reasons why you would want to avoid fighting wars in winter. In winter, you can't farm food. So you can conscript every peasant in the army, no need to leave anyone behind to farm food since its not possible. So, you could actually have more men in the army than in the summer. Now, this is of course only possible if army has good supply trains. Back in medieval times armies tended to live from the land, so winter warfare would not in general have been possible. And supply trains would need to be different for summer and winter, in winter you need skis and in summer you need wheels. You also need to consume more food than in summer, as your body consumes more food trying to stay warm.
And who wants to besiege a castle even in summer? More men you have, more food you need, so your army is basically just staying in one place and not doing anything for as long as garrison has food and water. And even though stone or even wooden castles are cold, its still a lot warmer than being outside.

But in Calradia, lot of sieges are assaults and not just waiting until defender starves to death. So having more manpower would actually be really beneficial. More importantly, it would be interesting to have more men in the winter, but they would consume proportionally more supplies than in the summer.

Also, moving with skis is actually faster and i think also less taxing than moving on foot. People could actually move faster if they are all equipped with skis. If supply trains have skis, i dont see why they could also not move faster, so supplies might not be such a big deal after all. Horses ofc cant use skis, so they would not go any faster and might go slower. That means, in winter infantry might actually be able to travel as fast or faster than a horse! We can't sprint as fast, but we can run a lot longer than horses even in the summer. With skis, it might be even longer, though cold could even it out. 

What do you think, would it be interesting to have seasons affect warfare in some other than obvious attrition due to cold?
There is actually so much very little explored potential here.  Not sure if in real life there were any medieval armies that were specialized for it, cold places had a lot smaller population back then (and still do) so of course that means smaller scale wars and less big armies, so also less need to specialize in winter warfare than. And when you have smaller population, less people are interested in you and so bigger powers have no need or interest to come up with much specialization in winter. And even in winter nations like Nordic nations, most of the time you cant use skis. Its not that hard to attach skis to wheels though, you dont necessarily even need to get rid of wheels, just lock them in place. Skis are just planks of wood so its not too difficult to make.


Winter warfare ofc differs from summer warfare a lot more than just this, but i think this is enough for the moment. In short, there are many reasons why winter warfare never became a thing in medieval Europe, but in alternate history in some places it very well could have.

 

[BayBear]

Would it be an interesting dynamic? Yes.

 

[lolbash]

In other words, you want troops to ski down snowy hills during the summer and a penalty for eating food during the summer?

My answer: No.

 

[Bjorn The Dead]

First of all, cold put a lot of stress on every living being so you forgot to mention the variable of morale in your claim. Also, you want to bring peasants to war in this stressfull environment to increase your army size. Well, this also can be said like this "you are decreasing your army size actually".

Spoiler

While this film is very unrealistic, this scene is right to the very core of its claim.

 

[Gerard_de_reinee]

You probably watched too many movies and read too few books. Your reasoning feels hilarious to me.

 

[Bjorn The Dead]

My reasoning is this, while even trained and experienced armies tends to avoid war in winter, bringing peasants to that kind of warfare sounds irrational to me but ofcourse there could be historical examples for this which I would be glad to hear.

 

[John the Roleplayer]

Farms required a lot of work during winter. They didn't work the fields, but all their animals needed a lot of care during the winter. Keeping animals warm and fed was often a challenge. Detecting signs of sickness and separating animals may become necessary. Decisions have to be made on which animals to slaughter and which to keep. Mismanagement of your livestock might mean that your herd is no longer viable in the coming year, so all this work is very important for the entire population. Bad weather could cause damages to buildings and infrastructure, so repairs and replacements would be required. And I'm sure there were a lot of other things to do that I can't think of. Medieval peasants didn't exactly have the winter off.

Skiing might work better than walking through deep snow, but it's still more exhausting than walking on plain ground in fair weather, especially of you're not used to it. Wagons and other vehicles would have had to be very light to profit from skis. Heavy wagons would sink in the snow and be very hard to pull for animals, especially if those animals are heavy enough to sink into the snow themselves. To transport an entire army's supplies on light sledges, you'd need a great number of them, which would be expensive and time consuming to produce.

I can't think of an upside to warfare in winter and think it was generally avoided for good reason.

 

[Lord Brutus]

Ah, no.

 

[NPC99]

The saga of king Sverre of Norway reports how Sverre around year 1200 sent troops on ski to patrol the Aker area near Oslo. During Sverre's siege of Tønsberg Fortress, soldiers boldly skied down the steep cliff. According to the saga, Haakon IV of Norway as a baby in 1206 was transported by soldiers on skis through the hills between Gudbrandsdalen and Østerdalen valleys, this event inspired modern day Birkebeinerrennet ski marathon. Ski warfare, the use of ski-equipped troops in war, is first recorded by the Danish historian Saxo Grammaticus in the 13th century. The speed and distance that ski troops are able to cover is comparable to that of light cavalry.

However, you can't put horses on skis. I prefer Mount & Blade to Ski & Blade. 

I also don't want enforced inactivity for three game weeks p.a. What TW did promise was snow impairing troop effectiveness:

Changing seasons affect the weather and transform the landscape sending snow creeping south during winter. Significant gameplay effects, of the changing conditions, are felt in the effectiveness of different troop types. Cavalry and ranged units in particular will have a harder time in rain or snow. One major change from Warband is how time progresses; the yearly cycle has been shortened to twelve weeks, which adds more importance to the changing seasons and ageing of characters.
https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/14

 

[Noudelle]

Changing seasons affect the weather and transform the landscape sending snow creeping south during winter. Significant gameplay effects, of the changing conditions, are felt in the effectiveness of different troop types. Cavalry and ranged units in particular will have a harder time in rain or snow. One major change from Warband is how time progresses; the yearly cycle has been shortened to twelve weeks, which adds more importance to the changing seasons and ageing of characters.
https://www.taleworlds.com/en/Games/Bannerlord/Blog/14

I wasn't aware of that. Interesting.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Ruler of Calradia]

Many good points in this thread sry for not taking effort to answer them all.

First of all, cold put a lot of stress on every living being so you forgot to mention the variable of morale in your claim. Also, you want to bring peasants to war in this stressfull environment to increase your army size. Well, this also can be said like this "you are decreasing your army size actually".

Spoiler

While this film is very unrealistic, this scene is right to the very core of its claim.

Well, it sort of is right and sort of not. Altough lowly trained, badly equipped and lead troops can be easy to slaughter by good soldiers, if you have lot of decently trained and equipped and most importantly, properly lead troops, then numbers become a big advantage if you can use them. Don't forget that even mere peasant can bring down a knight. Its not that easy, but when you can have so many more peasants vs so few men at arms, it becomes a lot easier to kill outnumbered enemies. Even Spartans realized importance of numbers, which is why they tried to get as many soldiers as possible, even lowly helots who they hated and feared at the same time were used as soldiers.

So while you absolutely have a point, warfare is far more complex than saying numbers or quality is more important. And most of the time, most of places, people decided it was best to have as many decently equipped, trained and lead men rather than small force of elite soldiers or large force of lowly peasants. But of course you can always have both high and low quality soldiers - like in Spartan army.

But as explained by others, peasants did not have enough free time in winter after all.

 

[ermine]

I don't like this talk of pretended realism as the game is still going to be absolutely unrealistic regarding pretty all aspects of military issues.

However , for not spoiling the party : Certain Tribes ( never a whole faction ) could have some sort of bonus for moving and foraging in inconvenient climatic conditions or so. PC or NPCs ( Companions ) can have it too ( according to their backgrounds ) however won't be able to apply it 1:1 on their parties .

 

[Lord Engineer (Castor)]

I think winter should definitely be a hindrance, which it already is at least in some capacity as NPC99 highlighted. I don't know how much seasons will impact warfare as there could very well be some unmentioned effects but I would like to see that party speed is affected by the weather. This is probably already in the game as winter could change the terrain and thus affect party speed but if it isn't I think that is should be included. Maybe troops might also suffer a morale drop during winter (which maybe Sturgians troops are exempt from), and an increased consumption of food. I can't really think of any other hindrances, except maybe troops dying of hypothermia but I can't really think of a way for this to be included that won't be infuriating.

I don't think this has been mentioned yet but I think it would be cool if rivers and lakes froze over in winter, it would also introduce a new dynamic to the game. A new pathway or shortcut might often in winter. I don't think this should apply to the whole map, only in regions where it makes sense.

You brought up the idea of implementing skis and I'm not really sure what to say about it. I know ski warfare is a real thing though I'm just not sure how well it fits into Mount & Blade. I'm also not really sure how well it would work, especially in a medieval setting as I only know about how it works in semi-modern settings.

 

[NPC99]

I think that snow is the hinderance in Bannerlord as opposed to Winter and I doubt snow will reach desert regions at any time of the year.

 

[Kretti]

I'm also not really sure how well it would work, especially in a medieval setting as I only know about how it works in semi-modern settings.

In Northern Europe you couldn't get around during the winter without skiing, so everyone knew how to do it. People have hunted for big game (moose, bears, deer) on skis with a spear so it's by no means an implausible way to move around and exert violence. It's only a matter of whether it could have an impact on gameplay or not, and whether or not it would be worth it to do separate animations and mechanics for it. In my mind they'd only be useful for either skirmishing, or harassing an enemy that's waist-deep in snow, possibly with a long spear so they can't get to you.

You could obviously organize a raid on skis and dog/reindeer sleds and probably be somewhat succesful, but mobilizing an entire army for it sounds far fetched considering medieval supply-lines. Even in a modern setting skis are mostly used for quick ambushes (fire-and-retreat), or for getting to position where you either take off your skis or hold your position until you can retreat.

 

[Lord Engineer (Castor)]

I think that snow is the hinderance in Bannerlord as opposed to Winter and I doubt snow will reach desert regions at any time of the year.

Well winter is the cause of the hindrance then as it snows more in winter, and of course I don't want it to snow in a hot desert (which I presume is what you meant) as that would be silly. However I would like to point out that it does snow in the world's largest desert and that technically one of the driest places on earth is in Antarctica, it's called the McMurdo Dry Valleys.

As I said earlier I think the main way winter will impact players is by changing the terrain (into snow), so I don't really know what else to say except that maybe the harsher effects of winter should only apply to people in snow laden regions.

 

[Tuidjy]

You forget a few things about winter. 

You need fuel, you need warm clothing, you need more food, wounds heal slower, getting wet may be deadly, skying in armor or with a load on your back is a lot more dangerous, etc.  And then there is fighting in the snow.  The iron armor will make you very cold when you are not moving, the padding will make you very, very hot when you are moving, and when you stop afterwards... you will be very lucky not to catch your death. 

Laughably enough, the one thing that is easier in winter is getting food.  The crops are gathered, the animals are sheltered, and if you do not care about the enemy's serfs starving, it is a lot easier to live off the people you are invading.

You sound like someone who has skied for fun, always having a nice hot bath available if needed.  A medieval soldier would not be very happy about risking half a dozen new ways of death, in order to campaign in winter.

I grew up in Northern Bulgaria, which is one Hell of a lot warmer than most of Russia and Scandinavia, and I can tell you that just having to sky to the outskirts of the village to check on my grandfather's sheep was a pain in the neck, and when I had to take tools and materials (to fix things) I preferred to walk.  Some winters, the Danube would freeze, and wolves from Romania would be threatening the herds and flocks.  I do not remember these winter nights fondly... camping on the move must be a lot worse than huddling in a shepherd's hut.

And by the way, why the hell do you assume that everyone will be an expert skier?  Peasants would have used contraptions that allow walking on snow by spreading your weight.  A good pair of ski would have been expensive to make, difficult to maintain, and a lot less durable than modern ones are. 

Also, different terrain would be quite treacherous to specific kinds of skis.  Are you going to be restricting yourself only to roads?  Are you going to have your army advance in a file or in a line?  Both have their issues.  You will be moving in unknown terrain, over unknown debris.

Forget it.  There was a reason that there was very little raiding in winter, and practically no warfare.  Yes, I can think of three famous winter marches.  There is a reason that they are famous.  I can also think of quite a few winter disasters.

 

[NPC99]

You forget a few things about winter. 

You need fuel, you need warm clothing, you need more food, wounds heal slower, getting wet may be deadly, skying in armor or with a load on your back is a lot more dangerous, etc.  And then there is fighting in the snow.  The iron armor will make you very cold when you are not moving, the padding will make you very, very hot when you are moving, and when you stop afterwards... you will be very lucky not to catch your death. 

Laughably enough, the one thing that is easier in winter is getting food.  The crops are gathered, the animals are sheltered, and if you do not care about the enemy's serfs starving, it is a lot easier to live off the people you are invading.

You sound like someone who has skied for fun, always having a nice hot bath available if needed.  A medieval soldier would not be very happy about risking half a dozen new ways of death, in order to campaign in winter.

I grew up in Northern Bulgaria, which is one Hell of a lot warmer than most of Russia and Scandinavia, and I can tell you that just having to sky to the outskirts of the village to check on my grandfather's sheep was a pain in the neck, and when I had to take tools and materials (to fix things) I preferred to walk.  Some winters, the Danube would freeze, and wolves from Romania would be threatening the herds and flocks.  I do not remember these winter nights fondly... camping on the move must be a lot worse than huddling in a shepherd's hut.

And by the way, why the hell do you assume that everyone will be an expert skier?  Peasants would have used contraptions that allow walking on snow by spreading your weight.  A good pair of ski would have been expensive to make, difficult to maintain, and a lot less durable than modern ones are. 

Also, different terrain would be quite treacherous to specific kinds of skis.  Are you going to be restricting yourself only to roads?  Are you going to have your army advance in a file or in a line?  Both have their issues.  You will be moving in unknown terrain, over unknown debris.

Forget it.  There was a reason that there was very little raiding in winter, and practically no warfare.  Yes, I can think of three famous winter marches.  There is a reason that they are famous.  I can also think of quite a few winter disasters.

I agree historically and logically. However, Bannerlord's a game. Player's won't buy it if they have to sit on their hands for a quarter of a game year even though that will only be three game weeks in Bannerlord. So, I fully expect we'll have raiding and campaigns in winter - TW will just make it a little more difficult for certain troops - reduced speed in snow etc. I'll still enjoy the aesthetics of a dynamic snowline as seasons change.  Maybe someone else will mod a historically correct winter.

 

[John the Roleplayer]

The aesthetic aspect of fighting in snow would indeed make it worthwhile for the game. I hope that during winter there will be sufficient detriment to armies to make it clear that it's not the best time for campaigns, but they aren't impossible either.

Small parties, just the player and companions maybe, could be exempt from some of the disadvantages of winter. That way it would be a good idea to garrison your troops for the winter and pursue business other than large campaigns (e.g. quests, trading, hunting,...), where there would still be some fighting, and the player gets to experience beautiful battle scenes in the snow.

 

[Lord Brutus]

No one is exempt from the ravages of winter.  That idea is ridiculous.  You begin a march with 120 troops and after two days you have 80 because the rest deserted.  Let's hope they stay close to reality in this case.  I am in favor of the player doing things besides large scale combat in winter.