Winter warfare

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Lord Brutus said:
No one is exempt from the ravages of winter.  That idea is ridiculous.  You begin a march with 120 troops and after two days you have 80 because the rest deserted.  [...]
 
Not literally of course, no. But some of winter's effect, like increased food and fuel consumption, could be considered negligible enough in game terms for small parties to not be subjected to them. I'm thinking of parties up to around a dozen here, 120 I'd already consider an "army" in M&B's scale.
Lord Brutus said:
[...] I am in favor of the player doing things besides large scale combat in winter.
That's exactly what I'd hope a preference for small parties would lead to.
John C said:
[...] That way it would be a good idea to garrison your troops for the winter and pursue business other than large campaigns (e.g. quests, trading, hunting,...)[...]
 
Tuidjy said:
You sound like someone who has skied for fun, always having a nice hot bath available if needed.  A medieval soldier would not be very happy about risking half a dozen new ways of death, in order to campaign in winter.

I grew up in Northern Bulgaria, which is one Hell of a lot warmer than most of Russia and Scandinavia, and I can tell you that just having to sky to the outskirts of the village to check on my grandfather's sheep was a pain in the neck, and when I had to take tools and materials (to fix things) I preferred to walk.  Some winters, the Danube would freeze, and wolves from Romania would be threatening the herds and flocks.  I do not remember these winter nights fondly... camping on the move must be a lot worse than huddling in a shepherd's hut.

I don't know your history or your physical condition, but your argument here is overemphasizing many things, and forgetting a lot of others. Your experience does not erase the fact that people have done what you describe and harder things on top of that for a good while before anyone had the luxury of an immediate hot bath. If winter lasts for 5-6 months a year then everyone has to know how to ski. Otherwise you can't get around, and you sure as hell aren't going to survive the winter without help, because summer is short and you need to hunt for food.

We have records from the 1800s when this was still practiced in parts of Northern Fenno-Scandia and Siberia. Men would gather together during february or march, and assign who was to be chasing and spearing the deer, and who was to follow with a sled (pulled by either a man or a reindeer) to come up and skin and chop the carcass. The spearmen would try to surprise the deer and give chase until the deer collapsed in the snow, or the hunter caught up and killed it. They kept warm by staying on the move and drinking soup from a flask, and hunted from dawn to dusk (meaning around 8-10 hours depending on the time of year).

After they stopped they dug a pit in the snow, made a large fire, cooked, and hanged their clothes to dry and continued in the morning until they had enough meat to last for a while. A spearman would continue to do this several times every winter until he wasn't fit for catching up to the deer, and was then assigned for just following the others and skinning and chopping the prey. Usually this would happen around the age 35-50, depending on health. All of this was done in deep snow, because otherwise the deer wouldn't tire fast enough.

In addition to this, even softer modern people use skis for hunting, and every Nordic military has sking as part of the training. We carried around 50kg of gear while sking 30-40 km per day, and that's what you'd expect from just a regular scout, specialists have it harder. Staying isn't an issue if you can make a fire and/or have any spare clothes, you're not going to get cold if you don't just stand around and remember to drink.

Honestly only wolves have a reputation for getting hunters killed by sweating and getting cold afterwards, because you had to chase it a lot longer than a deer, and were often too exhausted to set up camp by yourself.

A good pair of ski would have been expensive to make, difficult to maintain, and a lot less durable than modern ones are. 

This is simply false. People made backups and skis were thicker and longer than modern ones, sometimes the other one was padded with fur so you could kick more speed with it. Durability isn't an issue unless you're an incompetent skier.


Also, different terrain would be quite treacherous to specific kinds of skis.  Are you going to be restricting yourself only to roads?  Are you going to have your army advance in a file or in a line?  Both have their issues.  You will be moving in unknown terrain, over unknown debris.

Forget it.  There was a reason that there was very little raiding in winter, and practically no warfare.  Yes, I can think of three famous winter marches.  There is a reason that they are famous.  I can also think of quite a few winter disasters.

I'm not aware of any pre-modern skis that couldn't have been used in deep snow. There wouldn't have been any point for modern sport-skis because all the roads were covered in snow. The ones we used in the army were wide and semi-long forest skis, historical skis were even longer so you wouldn't sink in the snow. Either way a regular forest ski is suitable for most environments.

I do agree that melee battles on skis sound ridiculous, it's simply too clumsy and impractical. They are and were used for moving around but I don't think that's enough to justify putting skis into the game. I'm not arguing that medieval warfare would have happened during the winter, I'm simply stating that raiding wouldn't have been impossible at all.


Lord Brutus said:
No one is exempt from the ravages of winter.  That idea is ridiculous.  You begin a march with 120 troops and after two days you have 80 because the rest deserted.  Let's hope they stay close to reality in this case.  I am in favor of the player doing things besides large scale combat in winter.
That is horse****.


 
Your point about the immediate desertion. People die to all kinds of things, sure, and desertion's eventually a thing, but you're blowing it out of proportion, especially in a group as small as 120.

Or are you talking about M&B numbers or real life numbers?
 
There are numerous examples throughout history of military operations, attempted in winter, where a significant percentage of the soldiers simply left and headed home.  The example is given in M&B numbers, not real life and is only a potential example.  I don't advocate it for Bannerlord but neither do I advocate large scale military operations in winter.
 
It would be cool if depending on the time of year besieged castles and cities would consume more food. For example, if it happens in winter, the inhabitants consume more food and if the food begins to run and the merchants forbidden to enter the besieged city to surrender it faster. In addition, you can burn fields and farms to deprive the city of any provisions while undermining their economy and morale. Is it possible to implement this in the base game, but I would like to have to think about food in the cities. On the distribution of the diet during the attack, so that everyone thinks about their survival.

I want the player to feel the full burden of the war.

I don't know if the developers plan to make bonuses and drawbacks for each of the selected factions (if presented with a choice).

For example, if we play for the northerners, we have a greater bonus to the war in the Northern lands (our troops consume less resources and the replenishment of troops is faster), but if we go to the South it becomes harder to fight because of the climate, getting debuff to slow movement on the map.
 
Lord Brutus said:
There are numerous examples throughout history of military operations, attempted in winter, where a significant percentage of the soldiers simply left and headed home.  The example is given in M&B numbers, not real life and is only a potential example.  I don't advocate it for Bannerlord but neither do I advocate large scale military operations in winter.

Winter campaigns failed when an objective was not achieved i.e. the enemy didn't surrender and kept harrassing them. Winter alone won't kill you but being shot at or skirmished with for months at a time will.
 
BIGGER Kentucky James XXL said:
Lord Brutus said:
There are numerous examples throughout history of military operations, attempted in winter, where a significant percentage of the soldiers simply left and headed home.  The example is given in M&B numbers, not real life and is only a potential example.  I don't advocate it for Bannerlord but neither do I advocate large scale military operations in winter.

Winter campaigns failed when an objective was not achieved i.e. the enemy didn't surrender and kept harrassing them. Winter alone won't kill you but being shot at or skirmished with for months at a time will.

Lord Brutus still has a significant point. Armies operated in winter as a last resort and with great reluctance. This could be simulated in Bannerlord by doubling the influence cost to keep an army (not a single party) in the field while operating in snow (not Winter). This penalty could be factionally discounted for northerners such as Sturgians. A balancing penalty could be increasing the influence cost for non-Aserai armies operating in deserts.
 
NPC99 said:
BIGGER Kentucky James XXL said:
Lord Brutus said:
There are numerous examples throughout history of military operations, attempted in winter, where a significant percentage of the soldiers simply left and headed home.  The example is given in M&B numbers, not real life and is only a potential example.  I don't advocate it for Bannerlord but neither do I advocate large scale military operations in winter.

Winter campaigns failed when an objective was not achieved i.e. the enemy didn't surrender and kept harrassing them. Winter alone won't kill you but being shot at or skirmished with for months at a time will.

Lord Brutus still has a significant point. Armies operated in winter as a last resort and with great reluctance. This could be simulated in Bannerlord by doubling the influence cost to keep an army (not a single party) in the field while operating in snow (not Winter). This penalty could be factionally discounted for northerners such as Sturgians. A balancing penalty could be increasing the influence cost for non-Aserai armies operating in deserts.

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I like the twist that you give to these topics and what you contribute in your comments most of the time. As with the topic of the wives in the thread of "families and dynasties", in this one I like very much the idea that you share with us.
 
I think one aspect that would be really interesting for gameplay purposes would be rivers and lakes freezing over in the winter, allowing crossing at any point (maybe with the risk that you lose some men to broken ice). At the same time mountain passes would clog up with snow, making them impossible to use.

King Charles X of Sweden crossed the straits to Denmark on foot with his army in the 1600s and took the Danes completely by surprise.

As for the argument that more men could be levied in the winter, no, not really. Houses and farms still need maintenance. As for food, in Finland the first months of the year were known as the hunger months, because by that time the autumn harvest was nearly eaten (part of it had to be reserved for planting the next harvest) so large operations were nearly unthinkable.

I imagine the situation was easier in warmer places. Which leads me to think, has anywhere thought about what winter would do in warmer regions? In more southern places snow is rare but winter is often marked by heavy rains and flooding rivers. Interesting game play functions could be found if rivers flooded and became impassable. Similar things could happen in the north when the snow melts.
 
Oxtocoatl said:
I think one aspect that would be really interesting for gameplay purposes would be rivers and lakes freezing over in the winter, allowing crossing at any point (maybe with the risk that you lose some men to broken ice). At the same time mountain passes would clog up with snow, making them impossible to use.

King Charles X of Sweden crossed the straits to Denmark on foot with his army in the 1600s and took the Danes completely by surprise.

+ 1 Exactly this. In the Netherlands campaigns would be easier to carry out during winter. Knights on horseback with all their equipment can not cross a swamp, in winter however they can.

Also i looked at the world map during winter the lake freezes, so one can hope.  :ohdear:
 
Orion said:
Some relevant reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capture_of_the_Dutch_fleet_at_Den_Helder

interesting story and quite hilarious too.  :mrgreen: there are great opportunities for winter warfare. I hope that Taleworlds does not only focus on the disadvantages of winter.
 
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