Why Is This Forum Section So Toxic?

[tulduru]

why so toxic?

WELL. I can only speak for myself. imagine u buy a game and u adore it. you love it so much, u wanna sleep with it.
u especially fell in love with captain mode and siege mode.
THEN THE DEVS COME AN RUIN PERFECT COMMAND KEY BINDINGS. THE NEW ONE JUST SUCK!!
ok np. u tell them and maybe a few year later with much luck they give u the option to switch back (tho i actually lost hope)
but there is still siege u can play.
AND THEN NEARLY EVERY ****ING ROUND THE SERVER CRASHES..since when? SINCE RELEASE.
but np. its EA and things could be worse.
U KNOW WHAT HAPPENS NEXT? THEY DONT ONLY CRASH, THEY DISAPPEAR!!

but i have to admit Im really not that toxic. Its no problem when I own a game and I cant play the only two mods I really like..

 

[roffels11]

I've just sat and read the Multiplayer Forum section and Jesus Christ guys chill out and stop being so horrible.

Game's not even released yet. Stop insulting the devs. They're making progress (I didn't play for ~~a year and the game's vastly improved). If the game's lack of immediate progress is stressing you out so much, go play something else until it's done. Harrassing and insulting the devs constantly helps nobody, and just alienates the community from the developers. Moreover some of us would like to read the Multiplayer Forum and enjoy what we read, not see endless whining about developer progress and trolling.

I know you're excited for the game to be finished, but guys, chill.

----------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION TO INITIAL QUESTION - Early Access as a concept is bad/confusing. It's a marketing term for a beta which you have paid for. The developers should not have used it here and it has given many the impression that this is a full release when it is clearly not. Players should treat Bannerlord as they would treat a beta, and wait for full release if they are not happy beta testing an incomplete game (I personally do not enjoy beta testing).

Agreed. Early Access is not the most "playerfriendly" experience, but still people can read on Steam and gog.com that the game is a Early Access title, so the joke's on the costumer for buying an Early Access game despite knowing better. So there is no reason for getting mad because of Early Access processes, yet these processes are tedious (update, patch, hotfix, update, patch, hotfix).

Nonetheless, the entitlement I met on this forum, the aggressiv attitude and the exagerated usage of expressions like "scam", "lies" and "ignorance" towards the developers and players by forum users is impressive. Scams and lies are legal accusations in most countries of the world, including Turkey, where TaleWorlds is seated. Calling them scammers or liers is a serious thing, guys, and can lead to lawsuits against you. Libel is a crime in Turkey as well as the US and in most memberstates of the European Union.
Calling a stranger ignorant is not a good idea, because you never know what skills (programing, animating) and knowledge said stranger has. It shows arrogance and strips your statements of value. Try pointing out your own knowledge and sources instead. ^^ I myself was taken by emotions, but instead of calling people "ignorant" or "retarded" I pointed out what skills are needed to actually judge the current situation (too "small" patches, too "similar" to Warband, too "different" from Warband etc. - although 1.5.9 and 1.5.10 are pretty big and the game's a big step up compared to native Warband from a programer's point of view).

Of course there are chill and polite users and it is fun argueing with those about features the game could/"should" have or not.

 

[roffels11]

I agree with the OP.

For those saying that "early access is the release, and it was a buggy release etc" - they only released in early access because community has pressured them into doing so, increasingly more as time passed. Before that they kept saying "we will release it when we feel it's in a good state", but people turned deaf and kept asking for it NOW, and that was the result. Now the community is asking for content in the same manner (it's because they have been fed mods like candy during warband times - when they got bored of a mod, they immediately jumped to another - endless candy - forming this impatient community that always seeks something new NOW). Nothing has changed community-wise, from prerelease to postrelease. The only mistake devs have made was to announce the game so early. If they didn't mention it at all then everyone would have lived their lives normally, playing warband now and then. But since they made the mistake of leaking it now everyone is acting like they lived every moment of their life, survived and breathed solely for Bannerlord release during those 8 years, which is really silly.

Early access is not a full release by any means. This game has been in early access for a year and it's getting ripped to shreds on the forum like it's been so for 10 years, even though there are games that are in early access for multiple years and haven't made all that much progress at all. Games full of bugs and performance issues. It literally doesn't matter how much content a game has if the bugs destroy the experience anyway.

I bought some old games that have some bugs that were never even fixed, and those companies keep releasing new games to this day. And even though I liked the concept of some I had to give up on them because not even community fixes worked. So bannerlord devs fixing bugs and performance issues is good progress in itself, and they fixed a lot. Even Valheim devs stated that they will first focus on bugs and performance (and it was a smooth release, I didn't encounter any bugs). So even a smaller game like Valheim needs some time dedicated to performance and fixes (and it's a 1GB game with singleplayer and multiplayer shared - multiplayer only gets difficulty increase per player, and it has maximum 10 players per server, it has been developed for over 3 years as well, and they made it in Unity - an already existant engine). 1 year EA is really not that long for a game of Bannerlord's size (it's a 40+ GB game, with separate singleplayer and multiplayer, with over 1000 npcs on the screen at the same time in battles, a living world, and servers that have over 100
players, and they also created their own engine from scrap). There are still lots of improvements and fixes needed, and content, but it's a game on a bigger scale and more complex, and thus needs more time - logically.

If they stay in EA for the rest of 2021 and added some new content I bet people would be happy with it and all this negativity would look so silly, even with the design choices they don't agree with. But anyway, people should keep voicing their feedback, because maybe some things they don't like will change, but the negativity is not really helping, and may even deter developers from reading their feedback in the first place.

So with all that said, the "8 years in development" argument I see so often really doesn't impress me, personally... I'll give example of some games that have been in development for similar or longer time: Starcraft 2 (7 years), Prey (really cool game, 11 years), Diablo 3 (eh, but 11 years), Duke nukem forever (15 years?). You can safely say that development takes time. Some games have been in early access for so long too. 7 days to die, a game I own, has been EA for like 7-8+ years (and there have been some questionable changes and I don't even enjoy playing it at all anymore... and it only got like a big update each year pretty much, really slow progress.

I blame this idea that developers just snap their fingers and make a full-fledged game instantly on all of the Call of Duties and similar games which have been copy+pasted every year with just some different stories. Because of that kind of money-grabbing garbage people think that in 1-2 years you can make a full and perfect game easily - this company can do that, so why can't everyone else? Even if Bannerlord devs were inefficient in their work (and you can say that and it's perfectly fine), it already happened anyway, it's the past now. Let's move on to more constructive topics to discuss, better worded feedback, and let's wait and see what happens in time. I really hope the game will stay in EA for the rest of this year and we get more improvements like we have been. The game deserves a good memorable full release.

Hot take, but you are right. The attitude and absurd expectation we "old Warband veterans" display is silly. It is just a product to consume, in the end, a pass-time. It is not a sort of "birthright" stripped away or stolen "heritage". Although some people on Steam and this forum act as if it was.

Still early access can be frustrating for players. The trick is to just chill and do other things while waiting or playing the Beta version you liked best.

 

[Corsair831]

I understand you guys were ignored when you were posting nicely, and i know you're frustrated, but the answer to that is not to turn into a bunch of babies. Game will be released properly in ~~ 2 years (clearly a slow-to-develop game). It's clearly going to have a lot of promise. Just go play something else for a while and chill-the-hell-out.

Here, this releases soon;

Chivalry 2 | Download and Buy Today - Epic Games Store

Download and play Chivalry 2 at the Epic Games Store. Check for platform availability and price!

www.epicgames.com

 

[Younes]

I understand you guys were ignored when you were posting nicely, and i know you're frustrated, but the answer to that is not to turn into a bunch of babies. Game will be released properly in ~~ 2 years (clearly a slow-to-develop game). It's clearly going to have a lot of promise. Just go play something else for a while and chill-the-hell-out.

Here, this releases soon;

Chivalry 2 | Download and Buy Today - Epic Games Store

Download and play Chivalry 2 at the Epic Games Store. Check for platform availability and price!

www.epicgames.com

The only people who are giving actual good feedback, are the one who are the most frustrated with the game. Keep coping with this fact as much as you want.

 

[Maroon]

Wow, this is still ongoing, huh? Even after 10 pages of people telling you how things went around here, you're still sitting here on your high horse, having not been involved in any of the earlier communication, conveniently ignoring examples like the ones @Mabons posted, saying "well you shouldn't act like babies". Kindly ride that high horse off into the sunset.

 

[Grank]

They didn't listen to you when you were polite, so you think being toxic is going make them listen and agree with you? Look, there are several possible reasons they didn't "listen" to player feedback when they were polite.

1. They disagree with the feedback. Will being toxic make them agree? No.
2. They agree but are not skilled enough to implement them. Will being toxic make them suddenly skilled enough? No.
3. They agree but it's still on the list because there are other issues to fix (crashes). Will being toxic make them drop those other issues? Most likely not.
4. They simply haven't seen the post. Will being toxic make them want to read your post? No.
5. They have taken enough feedback to work on and are not accepting new suggestions yet. Will being toxic magically make other feedbacks completed or give them more manpower to work on new suggestions? No.

 

[roffels11]

They didn't listen to you when you were polite, so you think being toxic is going make them listen and agree with you? Look, there are several possible reasons they didn't "listen" to player feedback when they were polite.

1. They disagree with the feedback. Will being toxic make them agree? No.
2. They agree but are not skilled enough to implement them. Will being toxic make them suddenly skilled enough? No.
3. They agree but it's still on the list because there are other issues to fix (crashes). Will being toxic make them drop those other issues? Most likely not.
4. They simply haven't seen the post. Will being toxic make them want to read your post? No.
5. They have taken enough feedback to work on and are not accepting new suggestions yet. Will being toxic magically make other feedbacks completed or give them more manpower to work on new suggestions? No.

Couldn't phrase it better myself.
+1

 

[Maroon]

They didn't listen to you when you were polite, so you think being toxic is going make them listen and agree with you?

Strawman argument. Nobody here is arguing that it's right or helpful to be toxic. Like others said here, there's a line which shouldn't be crossed, and which generally isn't crossed (the occasional moron aside). None of the veterans here expect a 100% working game at this point. Of course we bloody don't. Instead, what we expect is some decent bloody communication about what the hell TW is doing. Do we know when they consider EA to be done? No. Do we know what they consider a feature-complete version of Bannerlord? No. Have these questions ever been properly addressed? Hell no.
So I, and many others here, are put off by the arrogance of OP and others attacking the manner in which we voice those concerns. If you go up to someone who's been brickwalled for 2 years, and say "actually, it's your fault you're not getting a response, since you're not being nice enough", while we have always been thorough and concise with what we want to hear from TW, you can piss off in my opinion. It's like going to a demonstration, and saying "why aren't you asking nicely over email to get things changed? This demonstration is not nice enough", without knowing any of the context. Or as you phrased it: "They didn't listen to you when you were polite, so you think going on strike and shouting in the streets is going [to] make them listen and agree with you?"

 

[Younes]

-> Stop being toxic
-> Does not stop being toxic
-> insert surprised pikachu

 

[Grank]

Strawman argument. Nobody here is arguing that it's right or helpful to be toxic.

It's actually not. There have been people arguing that being angry is more effective because it forces TW to listen. I remember one particular argument that at the very least it's more effective than remaining polite. Of course, there are also people who say they're right to be angry at Taleworlds. TW deserves it, etc. Unfortunately I'm really bad at remembering people, so I don't remember who said these, but I think there has been a case of this in this very thread. Feel free to doubt me for that, but I refuse the notion that it was a strawman argument.

Another thing, I wouldn't call OP arrogant for saying "chill guys stop being so horrible." How is that an attack? It's even more polite than the insults people throw at the devs, but I get why you and other people would think that way. That's just what anger does. It twists everything to justify that anger. Everything the other person say and even silence will be met with anger. Granted, OP eventually got irritated and started calling people babies, but notice how the toxicity started waaaay before that point.

 

[Corsair831]

They didn't listen to you when you were polite, so you think being toxic is going make them listen and agree with you? Look, there are several possible reasons they didn't "listen" to player feedback when they were polite.

1. They disagree with the feedback. Will being toxic make them agree? No.
2. They agree but are not skilled enough to implement them. Will being toxic make them suddenly skilled enough? No.
3. They agree but it's still on the list because there are other issues to fix (crashes). Will being toxic make them drop those other issues? Most likely not.
4. They simply haven't seen the post. Will being toxic make them want to read your post? No.
5. They have taken enough feedback to work on and are not accepting new suggestions yet. Will being toxic magically make other feedbacks completed or give them more manpower to work on new suggestions? No.

^
This, exactly this.

As an aside, as a Turkish developer do we even know how many of them actually speak good enough English to be reading endless forum posts about balance changes/mechanics suggestions? Are they more active in the Turkish section of the forum? It's more than possible they just haven't seen a lot of your earlier supposedly polite suggestions. I remember from my days of playing cRPG/Warband very few of the Turkish players were fluent in English and preferred talking in Turkish.

 

[Mad Vader]

As an aside, as a Turkish developer do we even know how many of them actually speak good enough English to be reading endless forum posts about balance changes/mechanics suggestions? Are they more active in the Turkish section of the forum? It's more than possible they just haven't seen a lot of your earlier supposedly polite suggestions. I remember from my days of playing cRPG/Warband very few of the Turkish players were fluent in English and preferred talking in Turkish.

Yes, we know both these things as they were discussed before and sometimes mentioned by TW employees. The real question you should ask "does anyone know and can you please tell me" instead of AGAIN assuming no one knows anything and making speculative excuses for Taleworlds.

 

[Bloc]

Are they more active in the Turkish section of the forum?

They are not. They are even less active in the Turkish section ( apart from some already known people like mexxico and emre - but even they are more active in International Section because they think it has a wider range of audience which is correct )
However, whether they are fluent or not, most of the devs are not checking the forum at all - and this is not an assumption, it's a fact. So if you are only seeing 4 devs out of 100 in the forum, then that's not a great ratio ( assuming that you are expecting to see devs in here )
I said "assuming that you are expecting devs " because it's not developers' job to interact and exchange information with players. So even those 4-5 people are doing a favour and listening people. Most of them are doing this by spending their free or personal time.

 

[Maroon]

It's actually not. There have been people arguing that being angry is more effective because it forces TW to listen. I remember one particular argument that at the very least it's more effective than remaining polite.

Very well, that refutes me calling it a straw man. Sorry about that, I guess I was more looking at myself and my arguments. Although the argument of "toxicity is more effective than remaining polite" could also be seen as "being vocal without outright toxicity is more effective than just remaining polite", which under certain circumstances (the current ones included) is true in my opinion.

Another thing, I wouldn't call OP arrogant for saying "chill guys stop being so horrible." How is that an attack? It's even more polite than the insults people throw at the devs, but I get why you and other people would think that way. That's just what anger does. It twists everything to justify that anger.

My calling it arrogance does not mean that I consider their statements to be attacks. I do not perceive OP's comments as attacks. I do, however, consider it arrogance for an outsider (ugly term, but I mean someone who has not been actively trying to communicate with the devs over the years) to tell us how we're doing things wrong, as if we haven't tried anything else, and then consistently ignoring our explanations about how things got to be this way. That is arrogance: reading through some comments, assuming we're all toxic assholes, smugly pointing out a supposedly better alternative, and subsequently ignoring explanations and corrections, and only commenting on other new users who see some of the (admittedly pretty vile at times) comments.

Finally, please don't push a bunch of armchair psychology on me. It's hilariously wrong. Perhaps it goes that way for certain other users, but the mindset of the majority of the vocal MP forum users is utterly different from what you make it out to be.

Edit: Also, notice how OP's signature now essentially calls everyone who criticizes MP a troll, and how he asks and "answers" a question in the OP without actually reading the other users' arguments.

 

[Grank]

Although the argument of "toxicity is more effective than remaining polite" could also be seen as "being vocal without outright toxicity is more effective than just remaining polite", which under certain circumstances (the current ones included) is true in my opinion.

Oh the argument was the former, as I was arguing that if people want to help they should keep giving feedback, but politely and in the proper sections of the forums, instead of throwing insults at the devs while doing it. Basically being vocal but polite.

That is arrogance: reading through some comments, assuming we're all toxic assholes, smugly pointing out a supposedly better alternative, and subsequently ignoring explanations and corrections, and only commenting on other new users who see some of the (admittedly pretty vile at times) comments.

It's not wrong to have an opinion while being new to the community. Naturally people make a judgement based on what they see, and by default what they see is the current state of the community. If someone jumps here and immediately sees a toxic community, I wouldn't blame them for calling us toxic without looking at our long history.

I'd agree with you that new people who jump in calling others babies or other names is doing something wrong. This is why I don't promote anger or toxicity in general. No matter what side you're on, it's harmful. I'd rather chill and meme.

 

[Maroon]

If someone jumps here and immediately sees a toxic community, I wouldn't blame them for calling us toxic without looking at our long history.

Right, I don't blame them either, but at the same time it's highly annoying for those same people to say "see how you're being toxic" when it's explained to them why things are the way they are, instead of trying to understand. Like, I too would like nothing more than to just chill and have some fun here, but I feel like if we don't hold the developers accountable for the state of things, nobody will, and if we don't keep hammering about the necessity of certain levels of communication, that will never happen (even now it'll not happen, but hey, at least we tried).

 

[KSHMR]

THE PEOPLE WHO DEFEND TW ARE BLEEPERS

 

[Younes]

THE PEOPLE WHO DEFEND TW ARE BLEEPERS

From everything you could speak, you decided to speak FACTS

 

[Barbellz]

Incompetence must be highlighted. and TW is exactly that.