White Armour?

[Orange]

Why not have an expensive enamel/dye sale item, like in DAoC? It would require a bit of manipulation with the textures (yes, making a new player in photoshop, fill bucketing the area and setting the layer to 'Color' is so difficult. ;p) but would be very cool. I'd pay good dinars for some orange armor. ;p

 

[GreenKnight]

I like it. At least make a white helmet! It'd go reasonably well with plate armor. Heh, I bought a black helmet awhile ago, and have been looking everywhere for black armor. Until I find it, I look like a complete dope. It SO does not go with my outfit, and I'm beginning to worry that I'll have to take on some more black knights to get what I'm looking for. I beat them once, but that is SO not an encounter I'm looking forward to again. But yeah, white armor. It looks kinda like a Gondorian soldier from LOTR. That's a good thing in my book.

 

[Me]

In the new version of Pirates! they have 10 "great pirates" that you can hunt down and defeat. They randomly spawn from time to time and travel in a certain area with their ship and crew. The taverns provide rumors to their general location at the moment.

I like this part of this idea. Would be nice to have the odd famous knight in there own armour wandering around to fight when you get to the higher levels. Currently there isnt much to do later on as you get to a decent level, killing these famous blokes would give you something to aim for.

 

[Sir Lothair]

Although I'm not much for the "Paladin" white armor idea, I'd go for the whole crusader armor. It shouldn't be too hard, just take the Heraldic Armor and retexture it white, with a black or red cross. (I'm a sucker for the Teutonic Knights.)

Ferox: I'm not sure where you got that the word "Paladin" came from the word "Crusader", they are two very different words. I can't see how Paladin stemmed from Crusader.

Also, unlike the popular belief, the only real TOTALLY radical inquisitors were in the Spanish Inquisition. There were inquisitors in other countries, but they did not "purify" on such a massive scale. Many other inquisitors tried to convert "heretics" to Catholicism.

Another thing, while the Crusaders did kill many Jews, other Christians, and Muslims. The Turks had no right to be there. They were not there before Christians were, Christianity was there before the Muslim faith was even around. While the Crusaders did kill a hell of a lot of people, the Turks weren't too nice to the native Christians either. (No offense to modern Turks.)

Wow, sorry for going off topic, and the long post, hehe, I got carried away.

 

[Kynes]

The factions int he current build are actually not too far removed from their historical context allthough the swadian technology and the Zendar castle are a slightly too sophisticated to fit with the world as I understand it.

Putting in Crusaders would detract a bit from the world that Armagan has created. I'd rather see more interesting tournament armor personally.

 

[Limerime]

Umm, adding paladins would get us dangerously close to a fantasy plot of good vs evil. I think it's better now that you can't really decide who are the good guys and the bad guys. Well, apart from Dark Hunters, who kill anybody they come across, and Black Khergits, who seem to be only after you - but these guys should be shown the door when it comes to writing the main plot. IMO of course.

There is a good way of implementing paladins. Implementing them to what they in truth were.

Killers, marauders, no less than regular bandits. In their "holy quest for the good" they are nothing more than fanatics with religious beliefs... that would kill an entire village if it, perhaps, woships the goddess of nature instead of wathever god those crap paladins believe in.

It would be nice to finally see the figure of a paladin portrayed in its entirety. Nothing more than a villain with a shroud of sanctity.

And here I always thought paladins referred to the 12 loyal guards of Charlemagne. Even that title came from "palatine," a term for imperial palace guards on the latter days of the Roman Empire.

That's all. It has nothing to do with witch hunts or inquisitions. And, as much as people like to paint the crusades hundreds of years later as a cast of holy villains, it pretty much in the end came down to the same sort of factions we deal with in Mount and Blade. Neither side was pure, and both had smaller factions within that fought amongst themselves. Many of the warriors, like soldiers fighting for one cause or another around the world today, probably believed they were doing the "right" thing, just as the Swadians and Vaegirs do.

 

[Skree]

Well, yes, i am quite sure a kamikaze thinks he is doing the right thing blowing up himself inside a bus full of women and children.

Fact is, even if he is convinced of doing the right thing, he STILL is a goddamn SOB wich would deserve a much slower (and more painful) death than the one he already gives himself.

So, well... i DO believe in shades of gray, that the world is not divided into black&white and nothing else... the majority of things ARE "grays", no doubt about that, but this doesn't mean that "black" or "white" doesn't exist.

The US involvement in international warfare is quite of grayish... more or less. I myself am quite gray, and i wouldn't want to be anything else... but well... terrorists *are* black, so are communists... and missionaries, the one who sacrifice their whole life to give hope to less fortunate population... they are whitish.

Oh, of course there could be a line or two of white in a terrorist's blackness... but well, black is the only color right for them.

Clear "good" or "evil" is rare in this world... let's fight the evil, help the good, and then choose wich shade of gray fits us most. It's the only right thing to do.

 

[Worbah]

However, this game is fantasy. Realism is all well and good sometimes, but if the players choice of allies are bad guys, really bad guys, and absolutely amazingly bad guys, it just leaves the player feeling maybe a little cheated.

Absolute gritty, grimy realism isn't really what this game is about. At least, not in my mind. It's realistic enough to feel 'authentic', but it's still fantastic enough to let you feel like a hero in a medieval-themed world.

You have a different definition of fantasy. For most of us, fantasy is where we have finger wiggles, flying dragons, magic pixies, and midgets that laugh when you poke them in the stomach.

This game is far from fantasy.

Have you ever read Conan? He shoves a four foot sword up th ass of any pixie that gives him attitude.

 

[Ancientwanker]

Exactly, there is romaticized tolkien fantasy and then there is pulp fantasy like Conan. Conan has the odd wizard or three but its basically about smashing people to bloody pulps with big iron things. And well, Conan gets laid and nobody in middle earth ever got laid.

 

[GreenKnight]

I dunno, I think most people here are too afraid of even the mention of fantasy elements. I can certainly understand the desire not to make this into Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact is, it is all make believe. It's a game, and a game should be about fun, period. Maybe for those jaded gamers among you (I, myself, don't play that much.), realism is what's fun, and I find it refreshing enough myself, but it shouldn't be pursued at the cost of innovation. So Paladins balancing out Dark Knights seems a little fantasy-esque? I say a touch of the fantasic here and there's just fine. Hell, so long as it's optional, I'd love to be out lancing trolls, but working within the game...yeah, I'm wary of purists.

 

[Skree]

I dunno, I think most people here are too afraid of even the mention of fantasy elements. I can certainly understand the desire not to make this into Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact is, it is all make believe. It's a game, and a game should be about fun, period. Maybe for those jaded gamers among you (I, myself, don't play that much.), realism is what's fun, and I find it refreshing enough myself, but it shouldn't be pursued at the cost of innovation. So Paladins balancing out Dark Knights seems a little fantasy-esque? I say a touch of the fantasic here and there's just fine. Hell, so long as it's optional, I'd love to be out lancing trolls, but working within the game...yeah, I'm wary of purists.

Paladins VS Dark Knights is not fantasy. It is banality.

As Good VS Evil is, after all.

 

[Deniz T]

I personally like the idea of reviving Paladins in a similar guise to the old order of Charlemagne. Perhaps there's a circle of, say, twelve uber-knights that serve under one of the factions kings. The death of one of the Paladins sets off a quest where the player might ultimately replace him as one of the twelve.

This reality versus fantasy debate is going to rage on I suppose. Personally I think the attention to detail and fairly faithful recreation of the medieval world adds to the immersiveness and unique feel of the game. I like how it feels like it's gone back to the source of a lot of what's now the fantasy genre.

Anyway, for those interested, a short wikipedia Paladin link. Interesting to note all the different personalities and relationships/rivalries of the original order:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paladins

 

[Whitmire]

I dunno, I think most people here are too afraid of even the mention of fantasy elements. I can certainly understand the desire not to make this into Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact is, it is all make believe. It's a game, and a game should be about fun, period.

Okay. Games area meant to be fun. Okay. M&B is fictional.

But tell me then why does every game have to be similar? It's the same as if every book was like LotR, just because LotR was "fun"! What new is there if Armagan puts a few Sabers of Dancing Silver +5 and Flaming Arrows of Xapaho +12 in the game? I'd rather save up and spend my money on good steel from Toledo or a blade of damascus than the Lightning Mace of Zorbas. M&B is unique in that it does not have those elements. That's why I'd give the boot to dark paladins too!

Look at the monster which became of Lionheart because of popular pressure! It was supposed to be set in low-fantasy Europe, but because of pressure from people who can't play a medieval game without their beloved Holy Avengers and ghosts and goblins, the game changed into a thirteen-in-a-dozen fantasy game. There was nothing unique apart from the disappointment of realizing that only the graphics have changed since Baldur's Gate.

Make a change: go for "realism"! Ignore people who are trying to make this game into YAFCRPG; Yet Another Fantasy Computer Role-Playing Game.

 

[GreenKnight]

I dunno, I think most people here are too afraid of even the mention of fantasy elements. I can certainly understand the desire not to make this into Dungeons and Dragons, but the fact is, it is all make believe. It's a game, and a game should be about fun, period. Maybe for those jaded gamers among you (I, myself, don't play that much.), realism is what's fun, and I find it refreshing enough myself, but it shouldn't be pursued at the cost of innovation. So Paladins balancing out Dark Knights seems a little fantasy-esque? I say a touch of the fantasic here and there's just fine. Hell, so long as it's optional, I'd love to be out lancing trolls, but working within the game...yeah, I'm wary of purists.

Paladins VS Dark Knights is not fantasy. It is banality.

As Good VS Evil is, after all.

Regardless of whether it captures your fancy, good versus evil is a concept many people believe in, and quite strongly. It's not unheard of that people will try to act out their beliefs. I have no problem with said paladins acting in the name of the church, despite your grudge against the crusaders. But with or without your approval, it's a somewhat neurotic part of my personality that demands symmetry, if at all possible. People are, in general, neither purely good, nor purely evil. The Dark Knights, in accordance with the implications of their color, seem to be a force for evil. It seems only right to me that there be a corresponding group trying to make things better. Think of them like a Christian aid society, only with swords. And I'd say that the white knight is a ready identifiable image in conjunction with the middle ages. It's a rather Walter Scott type image, I admit, but then the Dark Knights don't seem chained to history either.

 

[GreenKnight]

And Whitmore? If you'd be so kind, would you please quote the lines where I suggested playing an elf and felling Dark Knights with magic missile? The slippery slope argument may be a beloved fixture in debate, but come on now. The fact that you can string together coherent, even grammatically correct sentences proves you have the intelligence to recognize the distinction between a nod here and there to stuff that probably would never happen in our world to just going hog wild with it. I admit, I'd love to play some sort of mod where I'm trying out that couched lance on an orc, but that's not what I'm advising for the game proper! The combat is realistic, nothing supernatural. Keep that, definitely. Shades of grey, fine. The addition of one isolated faction pursuing an ideal won't destroy that, and it's certainly not humanly impossible. Find me Swadia and the Vaegir lands on a map. You can't, because they don't exist, and never did. This is not history. Just because something never happened as far as your history books can tell you, does not mean that, within reason of course, it never could.

 

[Egg]

The difference between Dark Knights and Paladins is very cosmetic, and the people rubbishing one and defending the other are being a bit hypocritical. If you put a 'Paladin' in the game without explaining their motives and reasons for being, it's exactly the same cliche as nameless black-clad Dark Knights roaming the land and being evil because, well, that's what Dark Knights do!

Before there's any talk of adding new cliches, I'd rather the ones that already exist were fleshed out and given some reason for being. Give them a home, and a point, and make it better than THE FORTRESS OF DOOM and BECAUSE BEING EVIL IS COOL.

 

[Skree]

Well, GreenKnight, a lot of dumb people still believes in god in 2005. Heck, a lot of dumb people even blow themselves up for something that doesn't exist so... well... shall we say that "belief" is an allowed thing? Yes?

So, everyone is endorsed to believe everything he thinks is right.

So one believe that a god created Eva from a bone of Adam. Very well, i can respect that. Somewhat.

Another believe that by blowing himself up in a bus full of civilians he will receive the paradise with sixty virgins at his disposal to fulfill wathever deside he has. I have a much harder time respecting this. In truth, i don't.

Another one believes in Mammuths, and his sure to find them somewhere in the world, and passes his whole life in a doomed quest to find something that doesn't exist, but in doing so causes no harm at all to anyone. NOW, here is someone i CAN respect... and feel pity for.

This is all to say that, in the end, good and evil doesn't exist... i never, ever stated the contrary.

This is why i oppose a pledge to banality and superficiality as to create a "good vs evil" situation. Because, you know, i don't really think dark knights *are* evil.

Moreover, they are called "Dark Hunters"... and they attack... what? civilians, mostly, and don't become involved with armies or somesuch. In fact, i believe that they might be one of two things:

1)Slavers

2)Witch hunters

That would make them already paladins. Cheers.

Before there's any talk of adding new cliches, I'd rather the ones that already exist were fleshed out and given some reason for being. Give them a home, and a point, and make it better than THE FORTRESS OF DOOM and BECAUSE BEING EVIL IS COOL.

I agree. Completely.

 

[Whitmire]

And Whitmore? If you'd be so kind, would you please quote the lines where I suggested playing an elf and felling Dark Knights with magic missile?

There, there you do.

I was exaggerating to bring home my point, that there are already dozens of games with elves and orcs and a battle between good and evil, so it would be something new if this wasn't one of them. I think you got in my line of fire because of the "lancing trolls" thing.

IMO, Dark Hunters need to be renamed into something more neutral. That will be a difficult thing to do before we hear of their intentions. Perhaps they are out to look for a ring and a short, stout fellow who carries it... If popular opinion is heard, this would be "übercool".

As to the church faction... It doesn't need to be good or evil. Church, like the secular factions, is just another faction with good and evil people. Also, as the church is everywhere and affects everything in a medieval society, it is bound to do both good and bad.

 

[Ming]

Moreover, they are called "Dark Hunters"... and they attack... what? civilians, mostly, and don't become involved with armies or somesuch. In fact, i believe that they might be one of two things:

1)Slavers

2)Witch hunters

That would make them already paladins. Cheers.

As has been stated before, this definition does not represent what a Paladin actually was. The definition I use here is the historical, early medieval definition (As this game has no Fantasy elements, the D&D Paladin definition has no place.)

It seems to me that since this game tries to do away with the Fantasy elements, there could indeed be a place for 'Paladins' in the original meaning of the term. (Once more content is put in, as someone already outlined.)

As to the definition people seem to be accepting, the nebulous sort of Proto-Crusader described in several posts (And their definition of Crusader is seriously flawed as well), I agree that such an organization seems jarring and out of place here. (I also feel this way about the Dark Nights.) The addition would go a long way to disrupt my immersion, but this is already done by the Dark nights. I really would like to have some more development of their particular faction, and then decide whether an antithesis is warranted.

 

[Ancientwanker]

Rather than even use a term like paladin Id stick with the names of fictional knightly orders.. Something like a fictional version of the Templars or Hospitalers.