What's up?

[Maan]

Well, it's not a very well known subject, as I said. I had the fortune of having a great teacher when I was in high school, otherwise I would have barely known about it. As one could easily immagine, no nation likes to recall how its founding was steeped in the blood of its own citizens.
This is a theme more commonly found in the arts: some writers touched the subject and, more importantly, movie makers in recent years: I would suggest the movies of Luigi Magni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Magni), if there are any decent translations available outside Italy. He's not that well known even here, though.

Talking about Hobsbawn, this would also be a perfect subject for Benedict Anderson (Imagined Communities, published in the same year of The Invention of Tradition). I have a degree in socio-anthropology, and in my degree thesis I used both authors' works  extensively.
But this is not strictly related to the issue at hand... just something interesting for personal culture.

Of course, the situation during Norman conquest was different... the control of modern national states over territory and citizens was much stronger than that of feudal lords. Anyway, it seems banditry in the Middle Ages was somewhat similar, with outlaws often coming from the rural folk and sometimes fighting something of a guerrilla war against the local lords. This could be something born from excessive oppression of the peasants, or sometimes one of them would join a band of outlaws after commiting some crime.
In any case, banditry seem to flourish in times of oppression by the lords, and the Norman occupation was quite harsh toward the lower classes... so, all in all, I think banditry would fit the period quite well.

 

[triato]

I would love to play a character that has to make a long guerrilla against local lords, bandits could eventually join a conquering faction that fight their enemies, gaining fiefs and power once their allies win.

 

[nijis]

Luigi Magni looks excellent. I suspect it might be a challenge to try to find many of those, however -- let alone with subtitles.

I would love to play a character that has to make a long guerrilla against local lords, bandits could eventually join a conquering faction that fight their enemies, gaining fiefs and power once their allies win.

Actually, I think it would be quite difficult for bandits/primitive rebels to make the transition to a full-fledged faction precisely because they lack an "imagined" community. Medieval nobles at least have a model of how they were supposed to interact with each other and support a sovereign. Trying to forge a cohesive movement out of very local bands, fighting out of desperation or greed, would be virtually impossible.

But, there's no reason why a player shouldn't try... There were a lot of millenarian social movements in medieval Europe. They often fell apart fairly quickly, frequently because they attracted a lot of opportunists looking for a chance to loot, but any game about medieval conflict and society would certainly be enriched by having a few charismatic social leaders wandering around trying to rally people to their cause. It could help make preachers and priests in particular interesting characters to play...

 

[triato]

Well, I didn´t meant for bandits to become a faction, I meant for bandit characters and maybe bandit NPCs to be given fiefs by the conqueror of their enemies in payment for their help in battle. They could also become enemies of everyone leading to their own doom. I belive this was the case sometimes during the midle ages, I think muslims gave lands to spanish (I know they were not called that back then) who allied with them.

Quote:

But, there's no reason why a player shouldn't try... There were a lot of millenarian social movements in medieval Europe. They often fell apart fairly quickly, frequently because they attracted a lot of opportunists looking for a chance to loot, but any game about medieval conflict and society would certainly be enriched by having a few charismatic social leaders wandering around trying to rally people to their cause. It could help make preachers and priests in particular interesting characters to play...

Yes, that would be a good idea, maybe succeding rebelions could establish themselves as a kindom. I am sure you can find a good background and mechanics for something like this to work.

 

[nijis]

Well, I didn´t meant for bandits to become a faction, I meant for bandit characters and maybe bandit NPCs to be given fiefs by the conqueror of their enemies in payment for their help in battle. They could also become enemies of everyone leading to their own doom. I belive this was the case sometimes during the midle ages, I think muslims gave lands to spanish (I know they were not called that back then) who allied with them.

Sorry -- I misunderstood you there.

Actually, one thing I had been quite curious about were the patterns of ennobling commoners, and granting them fiefs. I'll try to work out a couple of different plausible bandit "career paths", perhaps one of which could, with luck, eventually lead to one joining the political establishment in some form.

 

[Maan]

Actually, one thing I had been quite curious about were the patterns of ennobling commoners, and granting them fiefs.

Eh... me too.
It seems it happened, especially in this period (later, let's say after XIII century, it really became an excedeengly rare occurrence). Anyway, looks like both the "ennobler" and the "ennobled" took great pains to mask the whole thing someway, and make it look like the "new" noble have always had some claim to nobility... that's why is so hard to find something about it.

Generally speaking, anyway, the process was somewhat plain: the noble granted this favor because the ennobled one had something useful to offer. Combat skills, armed men, wealth, etc.

 

[triato]

Well, I didn´t knew of any non nobles being given fiefs, when talking about muslims in Iberia, I was talking about them giving fiefs to local nobles who allied with them. Anyway, my history knoledge is really not deep.

But, if it was posible and if there were cases in wich it hapened, I think it would be great for gameplay. Also, it could be the case that some resentfull and landless nobles become bandits, something like Robin Hood.

 

[nijis]

I was thinking it might actually be a multi-generational process -- an effective warrior is taken in by a lord as a household retainer, and over time might acquire the respectability of his liege. But creating titles by stealth could easily have happened as well. I must do some research...

 

[Maan]

This really has little to do with BfS, but I found a nice video from a wonderful Italian movie on brigands in the XIX century: Li chiamarono briganti ("They called them brigands"), by Pasquale Squitieri. What's more, there are English subtitles too.
It's the movie ending, with a really intense soliloquy by Lina Sastri.
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=RjYZtxMhMHs

 

[nijis]

I was only able to watch about halfway through due to download problems, but it looks promising, and I'm curious to know what happened previously. Even if the time period is much later, it would be great even to get a sense of the countryside. And I'm sure brigandage doesn't change that much from century to century.

 

[Maan]

Well, the story of that movie is that of a typical volunteer of those years...
In short, the South of Italy was "liberated" by Garibaldi, a charismatic leader disembarking in Sicily with but 1000 volunteers.
The armies of the Borboni royal family were in a pityful state, and Garibaldi drew a massive popular support from the regions under their rule: he was a socialist (well, sort of...) and promised freedom from the feudal oppression and redistribution of the fields to the peasants.
But when the South was conquered, Garibaldi, sponsored by the Savoy family, just handed over those regions to them. The new rulers found simply easier to mantain the old, feudal-like system where the few rich latifondists treated peasant just like indentured servants; the resentment for the northern "occupation" grew very strong, especially because they introduced mass conscription, formerly unknown in the South. Many young peasants fled to join brigand bands and these outlaw groups quickly turned to a sort of guerrila warfare against the oppression of the poorer folk. The support from the rural population turned the war against brigantage into an incredibly bloody military campaign, with martial law mercilessy meted out against civilians for the merest suspect of helping outlaws.

In the movie, the protagonist is one of the peasant who volunteered to serve under Garibaldi to "free" the South. He then suffer the oppression of the new national state and, with others, becomes a brigand to fight the armies coming from the North. Of course, it's a losing war... but the whole story is epic nonetheless.

 

[nijis]

Sounds very epic. I definitely must try to watch it. That's a fascinating period of history. I also keep telling myself that I need to watch (or read) the Leopard, although it sounds like it tells the story from the other side of the social divide.

All of which reminds me -- I'm trying to think of an alternative name for the mod, one that would expand it to include Apulia, Calabria, and the other elements of the south, and perhaps encompass more than one generation. It would also involve some more of the themes which I am trying to emphasize, which was how the Normans created a very rich multi-ethnic kingdom that, despite their wealth and military strength, was torn about by so many internal contradictions that it failed to hold off the onslaught of the Holy Roman Empire.

"The Rise and Fall of Norman Sicily" was an idea, but is maybe too literal and too long, and leaves out Lombards, Arabs, Berbers, and Greeks. "A Kingdom in the Sun" is a lovely title that alas is already taken by a book. "Lords of the Mountains and the Sea" evokes some of what I'd like to do with terrain, brigandage and naval warfare, but might not have the right ring to it. This is all fairly ambitious, so maybe I should do the mod first and worry about the name afterwards, but I was just casting around for ideas.

 

[macethump]

How about "Empire of the Inland Sea"?
Or, feeding off that, "Between the Mountains and the Inland Sea"?
Or, harkening back to the Italians in WWII, "Mare Nostra"?
Or, since it is Sicily, "We breaka you kneecaps"?

 

[nijis]

Hmm.. Hmmm... I like Empire of the Inland Sea, or maybe Empire of the Middle Sea -- which could be a compromise between the Greek, Latin and Arabic translations, or so suggests Wiki. I'll ponder a bit, but right now I'm liking that one a lot.

After a quick search, I see that "Empire of the Middle Sea" is apparently used in the Glorantha fantasy world, but it's a generic enough phrase that I can't imagine that it would be trespassing on their turf. "Inner Sea" might also work. Will continue to ponder.

 

[Maan]

I also keep telling myself that I need to watch (or read) the Leopard, although it sounds like it tells the story from the other side of the social divide.

Yup, pretty much. Although the intent of the movie is actually to show the dark side of the "upper classes" in that period.
Worth watching anyway, however, simply because it's the work of a great director.

I'm trying to think of an alternative name for the mod

What about translating the name of my old reenactment group, the ones who made that site I linked? The name was taken from a contemporary chronicle and is "meridies northmannorum". It would be something like "The South of the Northmen". Don't know if you like, but it has a certain flavour...

 

[Jonni_g_n]

Hi, my first post. Just thought i would let you know my idea for a name.

"in boca al lupo"  Meaning "into the mouth of the wolf" its a Sicilian way of wishing you good luck.  Thought it might be quite fiting. even though perhaps during this time period it would only be the Lombards speaking italian.

Got some good news tho. A friend is lending me the "kingdom of the sun" book which is over £100 in amazon cause its so rare, so maybe ill have some good info

 

[Maan]

"in boca al lupo"  Meaning "into the mouth of the wolf" its a Sicilian way of wishing you good luck.  Thought it might be quite fiting. even though perhaps during this time period it would only be the Lombards speaking italian.

Actually, it's used all over Italy, not only in Sicily.
Don't know, for an Italian that would sound somewhat... bland. Not epic at all, I mean. Don't know how you English speakers feel about it, though.

 

[nijis]

"Meridies Northmannorum" is excellent! My only regret is that it leaves out the Arab and Greek aspects, but as the Normans are the unifying factor in bringing Apulia, Calabria and Sicily into a single mod, I can overlook that.

I like the expression, "Into the mouth of the wolf." But it might not be evocative enough of the time period. "Battle for Sicily" was a bit literal, but I don't want to get too fanciful either.

However, it would be good to have a few catchy colloquialisms to add to the dialogs. I realize that it might not be traceable back to the 11th century, but if it's even plausible, then it would work very nicely. As for the specific language, I'd understood that the Lombards of the south would be probably be speaking something between Vulgar Latin and what would eventually become the Sicilian/Calabrian dialect or language.

Do enjoy "A Kingdom in the Sun"! It spins the history of the Hauteville monarchs into a narrative that is really quite poignant, particularly in the end as things begin to unravel. There's also a fairly recent novel that came out, "The Ruby in her Navel." I don't know how accurate it is, but the atmosphere it conjures of the Sicilian kingdom is very evocative.

 

[SnorriSturluson]

I think that, if you are looking for what was considered "humour" in Sicily, you could look into the "Contrasto", by Cielo d'Alcamo, a poem mocking Sicilian love poetry of Frederick II's time. If you want, I may try to translate it.

 

[nijis]

I think that, if you are looking for what was considered "humour" in Sicily, you could look into the "Contrasto", by Cielo d'Alcamo, a poem mocking Sicilian love poetry of Frederick II's time. If you want, I may try to translate it.

That sounds definitely worth reading. I can probably find the whole thing when I'm next near a large library, a few months from now. Don't worry about translating large amounts, but if there are a couple of catchy lines, I would be fascinated.