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vanedor

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I have been closely watching the development of this great mod... one of the best still currently available, but I'm somewhat dsheartened about the lack of news since a month or so. What's up? Is there still some works being done for this mod? Is it too much to hope for a port to version .903 now that it seems fairly stable?
 
I thought nijis was going to post some ideas, but I never really found those. However nijis is now part of the developer team and .903 is partly his work (Probably pretty much anything thats the same as in BfS) I assume nijis is working hard on the next version of M&B instead, which as always promises to even further surprise us! Last post I could find was here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,24702.15.html You need to scroll down to the post of 5 December, explaining a few things.
 
Sorry -- I have mostly been working on Native, and I never did get around to posting that list of changes that I said that I would do. After that, I was probably going to work for a bit on the Northumbria mod, and then get back to Sicily. I'll try to explain why below.

By now, the changes in 0.903 are such that simply updating Sicily would require a lot of work -- essentially re-writing the mod from scratch. It's not just the new scripts -- also, the changes that make battles go quicker, such as the low-density models, would require a fair amount of work as well.

After visiting Sicily, I decided that I wanted a mod that flowed much more like the actual historical campaigns. This would mean the occasional appearance of very large armies, longer and more difficult sieges, and more realistic treatment of supply difficulties. I also wanted to include the changes in the seasons, as weather and (even more importantly) the agricultural calendar had a tremendous impact on when armies could take the field.

The downside is that you had long periods of time when nothing might be happening. The idea that I wanted to try and implement stems from a new operation that came up a few editions ago: set_player_troop. This opens up a whole world of potential. Bored sitting in a rain-swept siege camp outside Syracuse, or recovering from a festering arrow wound? Put your character on hold, and jump across to the other side of the island and become a merchant running caravans, a Palermo street thug fighting for control of the harbor offloading, or a peasant planning out how he is going to get through the winter. This also solves the perma-death issue. Slain in battle, but don't want to stop the game? Just take over another member of your party.

The problem with starting this out in Sicily, is that Sicily is was a very, very complicated campaign. In fact, that's why I chose it. To do Sicily right, purely from the top-down aristocratic perspective, you need to model dynastic politics (for the Normans) and inter-clan infighting (for the Arabs/Berbers). Also, you need to have both short- and long-distance trade in both necessities and luxury items, and naval warfare -- the sieges of Palermo and Syracuse, and the off-map siege of Byzantine Bari, all required major naval battles near the harbor that cut off supply and demoralized the defenders. To add in other social classes (aka character classes), you'd need to be able to reflect urban society in what were then some of the largest and most ethnically-diverse cities in the Mediterranean.

Northumbria seems to have been a substantially simpler conflict. The cities are much smaller and there is no meaningful naval element. Long-distance trade seems to have mostly been confined to wool exports. Also, many the dramatic events happened over a single bitter winter, which would mean that I could slow down the pace of the game and still include a lot of action.

MorgTzu had originally proposed Northumbria as a quick-and-dirty mod. I'm all for that, but I'd also like to take it and work on a somewhat different version, tentatively entitled "The Harrowing," in which the goal is both to survive the fighting and the bitter winter that accompanies the Norman attack. It is intended to be something like the game "UnReal World," in that managing your foodstocks will be extremely important. I also want the game to try to "track" a few dozen NPCs, ranging from Norman lords to ordinary foot-soldiers to peasants, to model their decision-making and record the major events. The player can meet them, fight them, interact with them, recruit them, or -- if killed -- switch to playing them.

This may sound fairly ambitious, but the new M&B now contains vassalage, raiding, sieges, and a bunch of other features that I won't need to try to implement from scratch. Also, M&B has a number of new features that make bug-fixing much easier. So, I'm hoping that I can work out a basic version of The Harrowing a few months after M&B Native is finished, and then use it for the basis of a more complicated Sicily mod. Essentially, I'll be building on previous work, rather than re-making a new system from scratch.

All this is fairly tentative, though, and I also need to finish some stuff for Native before taking on new projects.

Btw, if anyone wants to simply adapt the Sicilian setting to 0.903 -- ie, use the new raiding and siege system rather than the old -- they're more than welcome to do so, and I'd be very happy to help.
 
One quick addendum -- it's mostly a cosmetic thing, but I was also thinking of increasing the size of the map by a factor of two, to get a better sense of Sicily's rather dramatic mountains and valleys. It would not necessarily decrease frame rate, because I could use various tricks to keep a similar of vertices on the map polygon, but it would double travel times. That would be potentially more immersive but also more tedious. I post this now because I was working on the map for Northumbria, so I was interested to hear if anyone has any strong opinions on the matter.
 
It already took a long time to get anywhere in BFS.  I'm not sure I'd like it to take longer.  Might be made more bearable if there will be more scenery to look at while traveling, and if something interesting (meeting various parties, etc.) could happen on the way.  Maybe something that has the potential to divert me from my intended mission, or gives me a difficult choice to make.
 
Just increase the density of the map.
But I guess you are talking about the batle map not?
 
Thanks for the feedback. I had meant the world map. I had wanted in general to make long-distance travel feel more like a small challenge as opposed to a routine task, with the character having to give greater thought to preparation and make some choices along the journey -- ie, introduce camping and ambushes, and have the player choose between sites with good access to water or sites that are easily concealable, for example. More travelers on the roads bearing information or goods to offer might also break up the journey. I'll experiment with some different things on the small-scale map before doubling the size, perhaps...
 
I'm all for big maps, as long as they're not empty. :wink: If you have interesting events along the way it's a good thing, otherwise it would just become boring.
Oh, btw... please, please, if at all possibile, remember to make the map with North up. :grin: For some reason, seeing Sicily upside down freaks me out! :lol:
 
I think big maps would be good the way you describe them. However, alerts may not work very well, by the time reinforcements arrive the enemy is gone and attacking elsewhere. A way to solve this would be that only nearby partys hear the call and partys that are far away only come if the enemy is making a siege.
 
I am suporting 110% of this, however to avoid making a 30 mmin jorney to reach another city increase the speed multiplier.
 
Thanks again for the feedback. I'll try to get the map right-side up. I'm not sure that one can increase the speed modifier, and if I did the animation would look weird -- the legs would move slowly as the party shoots across the map. I can slow down the rate at which time passes, although this does not make for any quicker journeys. Hopefully the extra "scenery" on the route -- parties, encounters, etc -- will make up for the time spent.

Regarding patrols, I want to have more localized defense forces who will react to attacks in their particular region, rather than have the patrols cross the map to respond to an alarm. Having parties respond long-distance to a siege is a good idea -- perhaps I can make a difference between a hastily-organized sally against raiders, and a better planned long-range relief expedition.
 
That would be cool - tiered response.
Just to throw a monkey wrench into things, were there any significant pilgrimage sites in Sicily - saint tombs, significant mosques, etc. - that various parties would want to visit for a morale increase or some such benefit?  Someplace hard to get to but worth visiting on your way to somewhere else?
 
Perhaps have the Lords, whom ride forward for glory and such roam the map, while designated captains or militia forces set by the Lord patrol the surroundings of the village, pretty much only defending its own town, perhaps neighbors if the towns are close. However there should be enough force left in the village.
 
nijis said:
Regarding patrols, I want to have more localized defense forces who will react to attacks in their particular region, rather than have the patrols cross the map to respond to an alarm. Having parties respond long-distance to a siege is a good idea -- perhaps I can make a difference between a hastily-organized sally against raiders, and a better planned long-range relief expedition.

:grin: :grin: :grin:
 
The game already has sallies, in which fortresses will produce a small force that attacks enemies in the vicinity.

There were no pilgrimage sites of which I am aware that were used in the 11th century, either Christian or Muslim. I suspect that the Normans would have made a big deal of it, had they ended Muslim control of a known Christian shrine. The Muslims may have had smaller saints' shrines, as currently exist in North Africa today, but I hadn't read of anything specific. If anyone knows of any Sicilian site that was likely to have had either Christian or Muslim religious significance in the 11th century, I'd really appreciate it. It would make for great quest potential.

 
nijis said:
The game already has sallies, in which fortresses will produce a small force that attacks enemies in the vicinity.

There were no pilgrimage sites of which I am aware that were used in the 11th century, either Christian or Muslim. I suspect that the Normans would have made a big deal of it, had they ended Muslim control of a known Christian shrine. The Muslims may have had smaller saints' shrines, as currently exist in North Africa today, but I hadn't read of anything specific. If anyone knows of any Sicilian site that was likely to have had either Christian or Muslim religious significance in the 11th century, I'd really appreciate it. It would make for great quest potential.
Mmm, the only pilgrimage site in south Italy I'm aware of would be the shrine to the archangel Michael, on Monte Sant'Angelo in the Gargano (the rocky promontory in the north of Apulia).
This was a very important pilgrimage site in the era of BfS; too bad Apulia is off the map... :sad:
 
An excellent list of sites -- and Sicily has some really beautiful churches -- but they do seem to be all post-11th century, built after the Norman conquest.

I would love to include Apulia and Calabria, as the Norman's base, the home of cantankerous barons, and the historical last stronghold of the Byzantines, but unfortunately I don't think that I can make the map that big, at this point.
 
By the way, the maximum map sizes might expand at some point -- so if anyone wants to provide information about Apulia or Calabria, please do!
 
What do you need, exactly? ...let me be the indigenous guide! :lol:

The site I wrote about would no doubt have been active in the period of BfS. I remember it being mentioned as an important pilgrimage site a few years before 1000, so...
 
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