What I wish got fixed instead

[gsanders]

I'm happy that Perisno .76 is getting pounded heavily to find weaknesses but most of the issues were solved with patch r2; yet a week later people ask
if they should actually patch.  No, they should probably not patch.  I'll point them to an unpatched Perisno .7 from a year ago and suggest that just for them, I recommend a "retro moment".

  I'd post it here but someone probably would state they couldnt figure out how to uninstall it, without recognizing the main difference is a few .txt files
output by Python that are interpreted by Warband, and the textures and resources that form the bulk of a Perisno (or any other Warband mod) are entirely
seperate from the code, opened by module.ini to preload them when the module begins and otherwise called or not as items carried by troops in battle are pulling textures to fit over each troop.  Thus the difference between running Perisno .7 from 365 days ago and Perisno .76 r2 from 6 days ago is exactly the 6 MB or so of .txt files that is the output of 200,000 lines of source code, of which less than 1 line in 6 has changed since then.  It has been my experience Perisno, like PoP or Brytenwalda or any other free mod in Warband, has always had bugs. It probably always will.

For everyone else, I'd like to postpone searching for the ultimate formations for at least a week. with 76r2 there is the ability to turn off formations under game settings inside camp menu.  It does not personally bother me if someone does this.  I just don't want to know that it is less than liked.  I agree.  I think Perisno is boring.  I'm also underwhelmed by Phosphor.  It doesnt fix ANY of the issues that bother me most - murder, rape, slavery, needless violence, killing for kicks, killing for easy money, making someone else bleed for a player's ego.  Alas, that mentioning of what's wrong didn't fix it.  But I suppose it highlights a problem with it.  I'd rather fix it, but its easier to fix smaller things, and equally unsatisfying.  The only way I think I'd like Perisno, Warband, or Phosphor, is when the things _I_ dislike are "fixed".  Whenever that happens.

  Play it or don't; fix it or won't.  The metagame needs changing to fix what's REALLY wrong with the game.  The rest are band aids on a deep wound.
I can take time to write user manuals and technical documents to please every perfectionist -- most of whom arent writing code, or maybe they are but hide behind a different user name, while helping as little as they can.  I hope some of you don't glorify war.  I hope you don't have war come to you, perhaps hidden by a wave of refugees that turn out to be angry young men, primarily, rather than families seeking peace.  Angry young men tend to not be the ideal source of peace in this life.  That isn't something I or any man can solve from a video game.  Certainly not while farming slaves is the most expedient way to gain XP and gold...

  Well I guess another wall of text without purpose for 99% of the "masses".
  Another wasted 2 minutes.

  - GS

 

[Firerainsdown]

What?

 

[DahndI]

A satirical slap to the complainers?

 

[TheMainMethod]

As I understand it, Mr. Sanders here is a morally and ethically righteous individual, and as such, has certain objections to the fact that the whole base of the game relies on killing, pillaging, and any otherwise consequence of war. He doesn't like that no matter how much you add or alter code, you always come back to a combat or war-related mechanic.

Feel free to correct me.

 

[Firerainsdown]

As I understand it, Mr. Sanders here is a morally and ethically righteous individual, and as such, has certain objections to the fact that the whole base of the game relies on killing, pillaging, and any otherwise consequence of war. He doesn't like that no matter how much you add or alter code, you always come back to a combat or war-related mechanic.

Feel free to correct me.

Well if thats correct then this is deff not his type of game

 

[gsanders]

As I understand it, Mr. Sanders here is a morally and ethically righteous individual, and as such, has certain objections to the fact that the whole base of the game relies on killing, pillaging, and any otherwise consequence of war. He doesn't like that no matter how much you add or alter code, you always come back to a combat or war-related mechanic.

Feel free to correct me.

Well if thats correct then this is deff not his type of game

  Well here is the issue: 
  Posters here ASSUME I'm here to fix every little problem THEY see in the game.
  This is absolutely incorrect.  I am here to determine the best use of MY time.  Which this week I felt was pretty much getting wasted when what I do have time to contribute wasn't applied because apparently they wanted to answer shop for a higher authority.  Assuming God Him/Herself neglects to answer them directly, I guess they want someone with a better idea of the code to, you know, Officially answer.  Especially since I neglected to kiss arse, and am a pretty mean s-o-b.  My answer to that, is who exactly do you think writes this stuff anyway?  OK, get THAT dude, whoever it is, to fix your issues.  I'll just stand back and shrug.

  I can actually fix the things _I_ complain about, but only when I have permission to tear the game apart and restitch it how I wish. 
I WILL do so -- even if I drop Perisno to get it done.  I'll do that or die right in front of your eyes.  But I may do it outside Perisno, because Perisno isn't MY project.  I just did most of the code for the last 11 months -- but it isn't MY project, to dissect and redo as pleases me.  But I don't work for Perisno's users.  I work according to something in me.  And when I don't listen to THAT, the code stops flowing.  I lose my inspiration, my mojo, my spirit, and my ability to stick to it.  YOU can write whatever you wish, if you have the ability.  Just don't tell me what I need to do.  You can mention something didn't work, in case my schedule has some free time and it happens to be something I'll need later anyway.  But I might decide half the code can get thrown out the window and it doesn't really bother me.  I'm that way.

  But since I morally abused some poor soul who just, as the chamberlain said, "oh nothing, I just want to check DOCUMENTS", I neglected to mention I don't keep an ISO 9001 document shop.  Michadr does -- but poor devil doesn't really write CODE these days.  He CAN, he just never gets around to it.  Robin did a lot on .8 until about Maym, when he got distracted.  In May, Zeph did a bunch of stuff that became .75.  Havent seen him before ore since, although I ear he got into another mod and has school again. The other so called coders just don't code.  Haven't seen it -- except Konyk.  He made some excellent fixes for quests and I expect they'll show up in the next rev, whenever that happens.  But if/when I walk off the set for the umpteenth time, I expect Perisno comes to a halt until I decide to come back and feed it.  BVut see -- I have no authority to rip it apart, other than I did already.  Even that was walking on a line -- Perisno belongs to Michadr.  He babysat it for YEARS, and at least a half dozen, better coders than me, including Zeph, came and went and from time to time still come back and help.  If that makes me the 7th son to do so, well then I'm in good company. 

    I'll get back to it when I feel better.  When I feel in the groove.  My health is deteriorating faster than I'd like, but I feel like I probably have some good years left.  My wife is a nurse, and someday we'll even visit the doctor and get my throat looked at/worked on.  I have very little money left so I'd prefer to leave it to her than fix something I neglected for decades.  But circulation and other things can be helped by better diet and more walking -- and my wife is up on that.  At one point in this - when I first started, I was bleeding in my urine from too much Coca cola and not enough cool water.  But now my main issue is my throat swelled up and I can barely swallow.  An orange might kill me -- I have to sort of spit it out so its not stuck in my throat.  Most of you are suspiciously younger than my first daughter, who was a 1983 child.  I was born in 1961.  My last daughter was born relatively recently.  I'm thus a fan of women's rights and equality.  I believe women should, in a perfect world, kick butt and take names as well as any guy.  Of course, it would probably be more "fair" if she had an AR-15 or AK-74/U in the interest of "equality", but that is a separate subject.

  I do feel to rebuild the metagame into something where honor actually means something and "slavery" (which right now is extremely well rewarded) has some counter balance option that ALSO rewards players -- needs a number of mechanics changed.  As for killing -- it is surprisingly difficult NOT to kill in Warband.  As for selling slaves -- what sort of reward, really, does anyone get by freeing them?  1 honor point on average for 20 slaves?  that's all?  It seems honor can be farmed more cheaply than that.  So long as the game defaults to native on all the measurements and awarding of experience and so on -- then it pays, well and heavily, to be a nasty villain, and even roleplay of anything else is - well, pretty weak.  Some might call "intentionally or not - lame".  Even magic, in all mods and including the open source grandfather of them all -- is all about blowing stuff up.  Nobody flies like a Shaolin, or gets experience for NOT killing, or gains a favor from a diety by keeping vegetarian and avoiding alcohol the last 2 weeks.  Religion in all the mods is either a toy or just not to be taken seriously -- there is no real explanation why religions fight with each other, how they would agree or help one another, why magic and religion oppose each other, or a host of other nuances that most people in the real world can't explain either, and the classic answers just don't compute.  Thankfully it's not my job to explain any of that, even if I was some "authorized" source.  Men don't well understand reality, let alone metagame mappings of whatever we think this world is.  In Perisno, or any other game - it's a veil, a screen where our senses watch a world within our world, while we can say - well, heh, its all fake see.  But at night we dream in an MMO of one and for a time we accept its "real", but low bandwidth.  Then later we wake up, and everyone we know is in it and its high bandwidth, so of course THAT's real.  And since we're pretty sure we're SO slick that men invented computers before GOd (and is God an AI?  how about YOU hold 6 billion conversations in realtime, as a background task)... well it's like this.  I owned a PC in 1983.  It had 4.77 Mhz single core CPU, with 256 KB of RAM, no hard disk, and on average each instruction needed 8-12 clocks to execute, more for math and less for logic and compares.  30 years later I have 4000 Mhz executing 8 threads concurrently, with an average of 1.5 clocks or LESS per instruction, and 16000000 KB RAM.  I have 5,000,000 MB of hard disk, compared to the 1985 hard disk that I bought for 1000 USD that held exactly 10 MB.  I have a 2 million pixel monitor worth about $125; in 1984 I had 320x200 in 16 colors or 640x200 in 4 colors.  I later realized I needed a 640x350 EGA monitor, then a 640x480 VGA monitor, and so on.  I ended up building 100 or so personal computers across 30 years.  I came to realize, darn it, God had a head start.  My interest wasn't to replace reality, just figure out what I needed to know to make peace with it.  Eventually, I didn't care that I can't one up our experiential world.  It was enough to look for the details at the edges, and think outside the box.  Perisno is close to what I was dreaming of in 1984.  But its still short.  Maybe because it's not the answer, just a step along the way.

  - GS

 

[Redleg]

gsanders,
Thank you for sharing that with us.  Take care of yourself and get better soon.  I appreciate your passion and empathize with your frustrations.

Speaking of personal health, I am nearly your age and have, in the last few years, noticed that I am starting to feel less robust than before.  I expect that a bit more exercise and a bit less sitting at a computer might help me out too.

 

[Leonion]

First, you know, it is completely unnecessary to mention your or other devs' biography, personal life details and medical history in gameplay discussions...

Second, names "Mount & Blade", "Warband", "With Fire and Sword" are not just random. Warband is about fighting, killing, enslaving etc. Just like most of other RPGs, strategies or shooters.
No matter how much I personally love economic/management stuff (especially when you have your own house/shelter/farm/fortress/order/unique troops/business/etc.) in such games, one can't just turn Perisno into Farm Frenzy or The Sims and take "war" from Warband.
Also immoral behavior isn't actually rewarding in Warband. Capturing is more profitable than killing. Selling slaves to ransomers is more profitable than selling them to slave traders. Money is abundant so village-pillaging and caravan-robbing are not a necessary part of the game (personally I've never done that since my first game in PoP which was my second game in Warband). Recruiting good lords is a much better option than recruiting sadistic and pitiless bastards.
Other than that... well, war is war. And this game is about war. You can't avoid fighting and killing but you still can do it the honorable way. It's all about how you role-play it. Despite having a rather primitive economic/management mechanics, even now Warband allows one to play a benevolent knight in shining armor.

 

[gsanders]

Is Phosphor less dangerous than Perisno?
  Why should the next level be LESS dangerous?  You think Farming is all I can write??
  Why should demons be less powerful than the player?  Or is there some rule the player MUST be most powerful thing in the game?
  Why should not something much worse than the strongest group from Perisno .6 be possible?  And if tools are more than sword and plate,
why cannot there be more risk instead of less?  Maybe Perisno as you know it now is the weak mode -- for little girls who seek their ponies.
I think it is possible to make your manly game while still leaving much room for MORE calculation of honor and choice.  Right now players have few choices.  They can roleplay but the mechanic does not actually care about their choices.  There is no reward, no penalty, no change of others' behavoir by your roleplay elections.  This could change, if someone wanted to redo the native code.

  As for personal information, it matters mainly on time and coding bandwidth.  A person who codes 100 lines in a year will not likely change tomorrow.  A person with no strength may not finish this month's work, let alone tomorrow's.  A person who could code but has left for other things, probably needs some catalyst to help him get started again.  A person saying they don't expect a timeline to be real, is maybe just as wrong as your fear that Perisno II/Phosphor II is some sort of Farm simulator - well, this is your idea of what I want, not what I said I would do, or how it needs to be done.  I don't think inside the box.
This is why I code.  If I just want to make another farm game, I may as well cut my wrists and save all the trouble.  I think you could credit me with more than that.

  - GS

 

[Leonion]

What's with the volus difficulty questions?
I was the one screaming "gimme back top tier troops with 500 WP for there is no more challenge"...

 

[gsanders]

What's with the volus difficulty questions?
I was the one screaming "gimme back top tier troops with 500 WP for there is no more challenge"...

  Perisno -- 500 Weapons Proficiency is Michadr's call
  something _not_ Perisno -- this is possible, but I think the entire system needs change, not just the number of weapons proficiency.
  Wait a month for Halloween edition and see.  I can promise some "nightmare" mode.

 

[Firerainsdown]

Gsanders I think you gada stop drinkin

 

[gsanders]

What's with the volus difficulty questions?
I was the one screaming "gimme back top tier troops with 500 WP for there is no more challenge"...

  Perisno -- 500 Weapons Proficiency is Michadr's call
  something _not_ Perisno -- this is possible, but I think the entire system needs change, not just the number of weapons proficiency.
  Wait a month for Halloween edition and see.  I can promise some "nightmare" mode.

  Persino .77 has a option to toggle troop weapons proficiency to 150% of normal, for every hero and every troop.  it works fine, and is in Phosphor v21r5 which will be released for Halloween.  Perhaps I should make the standard setting 125% and the "expert" setting 175%.  200% seems unnecessary, although it is very slightly easier, by 1 line. 

  I'll apply for a forum of my own and not hijack Rigale shortly.
  As for serious drinking, my liver can't handle alcohol.  My lungs can't handle smoking (of anything).  I do have issues sleeping, and have for quite some time.
As for anything else -- I take coding far too seriously, and prefer working with computers to working with people.  Perhaps computers have less feelings to bruise or annoy -- and are more direct with their own feedback.  In any case, it's only TWO MONTHS until Christmas.  I should expect Perisno to push hard in that time, regardless of my annoying comments.  I'll probably do a parallel project as well, and Robin should show us what he's been hiding all summer by then.  Who knows?

  - GS

 

[Yard1]

Gsanders I think you gada stop drinkin

That was entirely uncalled for.

 

[gsanders]

As I understand it, Mr. Sanders here is a morally and ethically righteous individual, and as such, has certain objections to the fact that the whole base of the game relies on killing, pillaging, and any otherwise consequence of war. He doesn't like that no matter how much you add or alter code, you always come back to a combat or war-related mechanic.

Feel free to correct me.

Well if thats correct then this is deff not his type of game

  Actually, I think this whole mechanic CAN be changed, without it being some sort of smurf frenzy or farm simulator.
  I really think you follow Warband not just "stick to the beaten path" but entirely on rails, like a train that never can leave the tracks. 
I think a wargame that for example always fights from a trench and sometimes uses mustard gas and artillery seems like its the slickest invention in town -- until someone shows the troops how to teleport (airborn ranger drops) or send a AC130 gunship for support (or a dragon that really flies and launches a magic ranged attack).  its possible to do more than you are used to; the problem is few people think outside the box, modders included.  So far I haven't delivered anything you haven't seen before, except the tease with the flying, and even that was done before (in Evlat, who one of their team joined Perisno briefly before disappearing, thus I had access to an early code version.  It was all in Turkish, but I often travel to Turkey and they're just 6 hours drive from here so...).  Anyway, it IS possible to do stuff in ways you haven't expected to wean the game from its reliance on slavery.  I personally dislike slavery going back to the American Civil War, where I have strong reason to find the entire matter repugnant.  But it remains to be seen whether I am indeed only able to deliver a farm simulator, or something outside the box...

  - GS

 

[Yard1]

I agree, a breath of fresh air in Warband would be really nice. As I said many times before, I am really interested in your work and can't wait to see more of it.

Also, it seems like people are misunderstanding you, which is quite sad. As far as I know, no Warband mod, and hardly any video game has tackled the issue of ethics and morality and how being good or bad (in the arbitrary sense) can provide the player with various different advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Redleg]

I agree, a breath of fresh air in Warband would be really nice. As I said many times before, I am really interested in your work and can't wait to see more of it.

Also, it seems like people are misunderstanding you, which is quite sad. As far as I know, no Warband mod, and hardly any video game has tackled the issue of ethics and morality and how being good or bad (in the arbitrary sense) can provide the player with various different advantages and disadvantages.

I agree.  It would be fantastic to be able to have more depth regarding the moral choices a player makes in the game and the consequences of those choices.  The honor system in Native doesn't really seem to mean a whole lot, unless I am mistaken, except for being accepted to be a lord of a kingdom, your relations with companions, and courtship and marriage.  It would be nice for example, if honor was affected by more of the player's actions, and that the level of honor would determine the numbers and types of troops the player could retain and also have more impact on the relations with other lords. 

 

[azxcvbnm321]

From what I understand, Warband was meant to be sort of an alternate universe to the medieval earth times.  In those times, it was definitely not dishonorable to capture troops for ransom, in fact it was expected and encouraged.  This method insured that troops and lords would not be killed if they yielded in combat and discouraged slaughters.  Having a more robust honor system would benefit the game, but I think in native warband, honor is sort of like alignment.  Good guys get along better with good guys and bad guys with bad guys, it's not meant to be a punishment or reward.  Having certain troops available only to honorable or dishonorable lords is a good idea, but only as long as there are options for both.  I would hate to be restricted only to honorable play, even though that's what I do anyways .

It's not about modding in something just because you can or you thought of it.  The mod has to make sense from a game balance perspective.  Sure you could mod in explosives that kill everything on the battlefield and give the player 100 recruiters to gather an army of 100000 anytime he wants, but would that be good for gameplay?  If anything, modders are thinking too much from the player's perspective and putting in things that make it easy on the player.  For "outside the box", I would think of stuff that would help the AI so that it can provide a better challenge for the player.  Even the simplest help, like giving AI lords more troops and better quality troops, seems always to go ignored. 

 

[Talinoth]

Morality is such a relative thing. It's true that by our modern-day standards, the wartime and diplomatic practices that are required to win a game of Warband (or at least, are heavily encouraged by the game) are not saintly by our standards. They're not nice at all. There is no Geneva Convention. You can sell prisoners to Ransom Brokers and make a hefty profit out of doing so. You will finding yourself leaving naught but widows and orphans in your wake. Plotting, treachery and betrayal are not vilified - they are vaguely disliked, but expected.

But is that wrong, after all? This is a different setting, a different time, a different set of rules, and the circumstances that drive the actions of characters are not the same.

This is a game. Features like the honour system are not about some 'objective' sense of good and evil (which are abstract and imaginary), but about social standing and appearances (which are real things that matter). It's about PR (public relations), which is the cornerstone of any good leader's diplomatic efforts, despite the subjective morality of their real actions.
In the game, and in the real world, what you actually do (in a moral sense) doesn't matter. It is how you are seen that is important.

I oppose slavery in real life, because as you say, the concept of owning a human life is repugnant. This is in no small part due to my upbringing, and the general beliefs of society surrounding the subject.

But what if you or I were raised in say, Ancient Greece? I think we would both find it normal and acceptable to own slaves. We are not built with an inborn aversion to slavery. If you saw slaves everyday, and people all around you kept slaves as you grew up, and you were never taught any of these abstract notions of liberty, freedom, or "human rights", then slavery would just be another one of those parts of everyday life that nobody seems to think twice of, like eating red meat even though methane emissions from cows are contributing significantly to climate change, driving a fuel guzzling car, buying an expensive new phone even though your old one works fine, or mistreating people with mental health issues even though they're more of a danger to themselves than to the general population.

-

The point I'm getting at, is Mount&Blade Warband isn't the place to be making a moral stand based on values that have little or no relation to the game's actual setting. Issues of honour and the way other characters perceive your actions in-game should be based on at least believable perspectives that correspond to the more primitive and hostile settings that Warband and it's mods present.

Your writing is very interesting Mr Sanders, but it might be best to step back from your own notions of good and evil, and instead consider what will make for a good game instead.

 

[gsanders]

Morality is such a relative thing...

The point I'm getting at, is Mount&Blade Warband isn't the place to be making a moral stand based on values that have little or no relation to the game's actual setting. Issues of honour and the way other characters perceive your actions in-game should be based on at least believable perspectives that correspond to the more primitive and hostile settings that Warband and it's mods present.

Your writing is very interesting Mr Sanders, but it might be best to step back from your own notions of good and evil, and instead consider what will make for a good game instead.

  Well to be honest, if I'm the only person writing for Perisno I can and will persist in writing whatever the hell I want to.  Then the choice is simply this: play it or don't.  I don't get paid either way, and you aren't forced to eat whatever you think I spoon feed you.  I just spent a week in agony instead of retooling your video game, for reasons you apparently feel you need to strongly disagree with, when thus far my exclusive and entire crime was making the economy more important than it used to be, exactly to allow less reliance on slavery.  I put a system where selling to certain bartenders in Phosphor pays less than ransom brokers, by 50%, exactly so the bartender could explain how they plan to assist those who have not committed crimes against the common people to go home.

  Apparently my nonstop philosophizing bothers you, to the point you write a missive on the subject.  I'd rather it bothered you to the point you bothered to get off your high horse and write something real, like I did for 14 months.  If you have the time and skill to philosophize about why simple decency has no point in your fantasy of digital slaughter, then show me something better to do with my months or years remaining.  Lets say I live 5 more god damned years.  I spend how many of those playing this game?  I don't live or die for your rules, and don't expect you to live or die by mine.  I don't really care about your relationship with authority or rebellion; or classical religion, whatever you think that is.  I just don't want my last work to be total dog poop in support of old society thinking; so far I've done nothing you ought to be ashamed of except to make the economy more robust than native.  I understand anything like Church is an abomination to many people, but I assure you I done nothing so far worthy of such a public stoning, at least on the side of righteousness.  As for my many crimes as a youth, these are not important to writing a video game.

  Whether or not Michadr writes even 1 line again on Perisno, which he said last night he will consider doing next month in earnest, I really don't know what will be PERISNO's future.  It won't really matter - so far nothing of great value has been done to it or from it.  It is what it is - a collection of OSPs and open artwork, stitched together by many people and many hands.  As for whether God or his shadow drives more of video game production, I'd say the only way to separate the two with any assurance is to see their works.  So long as you can't tell the sides apart, by method, motive, action, or hysterical reaction, I'd say they are indistinguishable.  To study the time as you suggest, I'd say during the time of the Crusades it was an awful time to be faithful in anything -- I would have been burnt as a heretic, drawn and quartered, murdered by both Catholic and Protestant, and stoned a dozen times at least.  Instead I am pilloried by some progressive for apparently pushing my views on anyone, regardless of how I earned them or the correctness of the result.  I'm not going to save your soul on Thanksgiving and mine is far too tarnished for anyone, anywhere to redeem.  I will NOT die and go to heaven, but yet another virtual hell, the layers of which are as ephemeral as the inside of an Orthodox church's onion dome, which has that shape not by accident but as a reminder to all that this reality you cling to is a projection, so similar in form to the video games we play, but on much older processors.  This is my crime - I bother to speak my mind.  As do you; "free agents" who tilt as gladiators for the amusement of jaded masses.

    And yet, the horrible pain I had for a week stopped the day I decided to give modding a rest for 24 hours.  The moment I stopped trying, I stopped crying. 
And when did YOU ever try to do something for the truth of your life?  Have ever tried with all your life, that you lost a child, a wife, your job, your house, your future?  Did you ever pursue a dream for 35 years, almost get there, then have some self important prick analyze your motives as vague and worthless, undesirable because they have prejudged everything you work for or feel is important as some sort of bull crap?  You can't prejudge what you haven't seen, or experienced, or even understood.  But so far I haven't seen your work.  Which mod did you write?  Did you like it?  Was it good enough to share with me?  Was any of it better than the BS I put out?  Are you in your last days?  Will you use the rest of your life and do something better than a has been and loser like me?  People like me are a dime a dozen.  I was on the street.  I lived life.  I kept it real.  I saw what down and out looks like.  I also know you mean well but don't have a clue what reality is outside your video game.  Just as you suspect I haven't a clue what reality is in your world either.  But the fact is -- I don't care.  I'm not going to MAKE you be honorable.  I just want to reward those that bother to try, which thus far I've never ONCE seen in a video game.  EVER.  Why is that, o wise men?

    - GS