Was fascism really that bad? [amontadillo's fascistic hideout]
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Heskeytime
Regular
I know it's been said, and i hate quoting wikipedia, but:
Fascists sought to unify their nation through an authoritarian state that promoted the mass mobilization of the national community and were characterized by having leadership that initiated a revolutionary political movement aiming to reorganize the nation along principles according to fascist ideology. Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.
Fascism does not automatically mean genocide or police state, in the same way that communism doesnt automatically need those things, those are inventions that came out of the sick minds of the specific leaders.
''The Italian term fascismo derives from fascio meaning a bundle of hay, ultimately from the Latin word fasces. The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break.'' Is what the word really means, and that's still a metaphor people use today to demonstrate unity, how a bunch is stronger than the individual.
Fascists sought to unify their nation through an authoritarian state that promoted the mass mobilization of the national community and were characterized by having leadership that initiated a revolutionary political movement aiming to reorganize the nation along principles according to fascist ideology. Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.
Fascism does not automatically mean genocide or police state, in the same way that communism doesnt automatically need those things, those are inventions that came out of the sick minds of the specific leaders.
''The Italian term fascismo derives from fascio meaning a bundle of hay, ultimately from the Latin word fasces. The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: a single rod is easily broken, while the bundle is difficult to break.'' Is what the word really means, and that's still a metaphor people use today to demonstrate unity, how a bunch is stronger than the individual.
Bleh.
Hate is good, limiting it to specific groups is being a ****.
Hate is good, limiting it to specific groups is being a ****.
Heskeytime said:
Thing is, unlike Socialism or other ideologies, in practice and often in ideal fascism often means it IS a totalitarian state that exudes xenophobia and needs scapegoats to place blame on and unite their people against lest people grow tired and bicker amongst themselves. From Franco's spain, Nazi Germany, Italy, Rwanda, Pinochet's Chile, and stretching it, Argentina as well. The last example is probably the only good example of a nation that once had a "good" fascist regime, but even then there was still huge problems that align with the stated above. Not every socialist group or nation has ended up with problems.
So, does that mean you have no problem with immigrants, as long as they're European? Even if they're a rather high criminogenic factor as well? F.e. how do you feel about Poles ("master car thieves"), Bulgarians ("master card skimmers"), Albanians ("master drug-dealer"), Russians ("master... everything") etc? And do you count Gypsies ("master pickpocketers") as European?Gylve said:
Hey, you know, I'm still waiting for that as well. Did you get my PM?Comrade Crimson said:
A bit off-topic, but does anyone know a list of instances when that comparison (or a similar one) was historically used? Because many common people in my country think it's something unique to ourselves, due to a popular medieval story about the father of our state and our parliament's motto ("Unity makes strength"). I wonder if there's an older example than the Roman one - I've only heard of a Persian similar story...Heskeytime said:
Heskeytime
Regular
NikeBG said:
I swear it's a parable in the Bible too, very common imagery.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
From the Wikipedia definition above...
Fascism views political violence....[as acceptable]
.....
And gylve, since you can't respond to any kind of counter argument in civil fashion, here's something on your own level:
A dictatorship, In case you hadn't noticed in your history studies, is rule without consent.
There are only two ways to achieve this. One, brainwash the subjects - and that is oppression in its own right.
Two - beat them up, imprison them, kill them, or otherwise silence the subjects if and when they have ideas that contradict those of the dictator.
Just plain and simple logic here. Any rule imposed without consent cannot be benevolent. Dictatorship may be well meaning, even "relatively" peaceful - but the very definition of dictatorship means that it cannot be truly benign.
And I noticeyou didn't even even try and support any other arguments in favour of fascism.
I Did your work for you, and you dont even have the wit to expand on what were in fact YOUR own arguments from earlier on, to try and make a case for what you claim to believe in.
Is that, maybe, because they are not your own arguments? Did you just hack and paste random bits of text off the internet? It's easy, isn't it? Bit like blaming Those pesky immigrants for your own inability to get a job....
You, my friend, are the worst kind of fascist. You'd be a greenie too, if you thought you could hide behind the Green state and kick the odd weakling whilst they were down.
You are the hanger-on behind the cool kids in the schoolyard, beating up the first graders to try and impress the 'in' crowd with your toughness...
You do not even KNOW what this fascism stands for, that you so loudly espouse. All you care about is that you can shout it while bullying the weak, and you think it gives you credibility.
Fascism views political violence....[as acceptable]
.....
And gylve, since you can't respond to any kind of counter argument in civil fashion, here's something on your own level:
A dictatorship, In case you hadn't noticed in your history studies, is rule without consent.
There are only two ways to achieve this. One, brainwash the subjects - and that is oppression in its own right.
Two - beat them up, imprison them, kill them, or otherwise silence the subjects if and when they have ideas that contradict those of the dictator.
Just plain and simple logic here. Any rule imposed without consent cannot be benevolent. Dictatorship may be well meaning, even "relatively" peaceful - but the very definition of dictatorship means that it cannot be truly benign.
And I noticeyou didn't even even try and support any other arguments in favour of fascism.
I Did your work for you, and you dont even have the wit to expand on what were in fact YOUR own arguments from earlier on, to try and make a case for what you claim to believe in.
Is that, maybe, because they are not your own arguments? Did you just hack and paste random bits of text off the internet? It's easy, isn't it? Bit like blaming Those pesky immigrants for your own inability to get a job....
You, my friend, are the worst kind of fascist. You'd be a greenie too, if you thought you could hide behind the Green state and kick the odd weakling whilst they were down.
You are the hanger-on behind the cool kids in the schoolyard, beating up the first graders to try and impress the 'in' crowd with your toughness...
You do not even KNOW what this fascism stands for, that you so loudly espouse. All you care about is that you can shout it while bullying the weak, and you think it gives you credibility.
NikeBG said:
I don't remember seeing that exact metaphor in the bible but it's really widesoread otherwise. It's practically a staple of Confucianism and you find very similar versions of it in all sorts of proverbial traditions.
NikeBG said:
I replied, and I tried adding you on Skype... PM which one you are there are two xD
Or add me- Comrade.Crimson
I'll send it to ya just... I need to know who to add
Heskeytime said:
But the thing is, "fascism" today is like "xmas". Sure, there's the random few people who know what the word actually signifies, but the misappropriation of it (although in a different manner in the case of fascism) means that for the majority of people it will take on a different meaning.
NikeBG said:
Not sure what Bulgarian legend you are referring to, but the story about three sons being taught unity via stack of sticks metaphor is told by Constantine Porphyrogenitus with regard to Great Moravia and the three sons of Svatopluk. Source - Chapter 41
So chances are, you probably stole it from us, like you stole Ss. Constantine and Methodios or the alphabet. Kidding
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
There's the final straw ( the inverse of the theory).
There's many hands make light work ( not absolutely the same).
There's herd instinct, mob mentality.... Again, not exactly the same.
People power,
Heaps n heaps.
Vermillion makes a good point. Too often I see people holding up strong right wing politics as examples of how fascism is good.
Fascism is to the UKIP as purge-era Stalinism is to Gordon Brown.
Modern socialism and communist parties have only pale shades of the Lenin-Stalin communism we know and fear, just as modern right wing and nationalist parties have only vague echoes of hitters national socialism or mussolinins fascism.
There's many hands make light work ( not absolutely the same).
There's herd instinct, mob mentality.... Again, not exactly the same.
People power,
Heaps n heaps.
Vermillion makes a good point. Too often I see people holding up strong right wing politics as examples of how fascism is good.
Fascism is to the UKIP as purge-era Stalinism is to Gordon Brown.
Modern socialism and communist parties have only pale shades of the Lenin-Stalin communism we know and fear, just as modern right wing and nationalist parties have only vague echoes of hitters national socialism or mussolinins fascism.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
Well, who/what allows them? I am inclined to think that in the uncensored societies of the world, it is sheer realism that keeps these right wingers within the spectrum of "acceptable".
No politician in their right mind would table an agenda of of despotic absolutism comparable to the records of hitler or Stalin.
And whilst we may say, neither did they, before they came to power, there are certain key differences between the modern right wing pollies, and the actual neonazi and protofascist groups that exist in the shadows of society.
No politician in their right mind would table an agenda of of despotic absolutism comparable to the records of hitler or Stalin.
And whilst we may say, neither did they, before they came to power, there are certain key differences between the modern right wing pollies, and the actual neonazi and protofascist groups that exist in the shadows of society.
Duke Daniel Milutin
Banned
I wonder if the cultural liberalists would have as much influence in the modern World, if they weren't able to use the fascists' atrocities of the past century to justify their ideology.