War Score continues to feel bad, man.

[Apocal]

Previous threads:

War Score feels bad, man.

We need to talk about the way war score is calculated in Bannerlord. The odd thing is if I raid two or three Vlandian villages, they'll peace out with tribute, even with equalish losses and no fiefs taken. Something funky is going on here and I'll try to break down the issues as I see them in...

forums.taleworlds.com

War Score still feels bad, man.

Note: I had a previous version of this thread but it kinda got repurposed. Posting from my phone at the moment, but in one of my playthroufhs, I've smashed the Battanians out of seven or eight towns, including their entire heartland, taking them for the Sultan. At the same time, the rest of my...

forums.taleworlds.com

Issue is still present.

I seriously believe there is something ****ed with the way War Score is being calculated, because I'm personally stomping a mud-hole in other factions but they barely budge in their demand for tribute. The main things that seem to shift it are:
1. Being in other wars.
2. Having a truly massive amount of prisoners in my dungeons.
3. Time.

Everything else seems to have a marginal weighting in terms of determining who is winning the war.

I don't know if this is something the deliberately targets the player faction since other factions seem to go back and forth on paying and receiving tribute but it definitely feels like War Score isn't functioning in a way that makes sense. After taking multiple fiefs, it is a bit silly the enemy faction isn't trying to peace out of a war that they are very clearly losing in every respect.

 

[Bluko88]

Previous threads:

War Score feels bad, man.

We need to talk about the way war score is calculated in Bannerlord. The odd thing is if I raid two or three Vlandian villages, they'll peace out with tribute, even with equalish losses and no fiefs taken. Something funky is going on here and I'll try to break down the issues as I see them in...

forums.taleworlds.com

War Score still feels bad, man.

Note: I had a previous version of this thread but it kinda got repurposed. Posting from my phone at the moment, but in one of my playthroufhs, I've smashed the Battanians out of seven or eight towns, including their entire heartland, taking them for the Sultan. At the same time, the rest of my...

forums.taleworlds.com

Issue is still present.

I seriously believe there is something ****ed with the way War Score is being calculated, because I'm personally stomping a mud-hole in other factions but they barely budge in their demand for tribute. The main things that seem to shift it are:
1. Being in other wars.
2. Having a truly massive amount of prisoners in my dungeons.
3. Time.

Everything else seems to have a marginal weighting in terms of determining who is winning the war.

I don't know if this is something the deliberately targets the player faction since other factions seem to go back and forth on paying and receiving tribute but it definitely feels like War Score isn't functioning in a way that makes sense. After taking multiple fiefs, it is a bit silly the enemy faction isn't trying to peace out of a war that they are very clearly losing in every respect.

Yes it would be nice to know the actual cause and effect for War Scores. Honestly we really need something like the War Fervor system I had mentioned in another post, that has known/obvious causes for raising/lowering the score as it were. So that we the players (those entities that plays the game and gives TW money) knows what's going on to a reasonable degree and can make decisions accordingly. Sort of how like it helps to not have a big blank screen, which the War Score may as well be.

But we all love a mystery right? Nothing like spending dozens of hours to establish an in-game Kingdom only to be subject to a roulette wheel War/Peace system that namely exists to handicap the A.I. Kingdoms from snowballing.

 

[SomeWeirdSins]

Previous threads:

War Score feels bad, man.

We need to talk about the way war score is calculated in Bannerlord. The odd thing is if I raid two or three Vlandian villages, they'll peace out with tribute, even with equalish losses and no fiefs taken. Something funky is going on here and I'll try to break down the issues as I see them in...

forums.taleworlds.com

War Score still feels bad, man.

Note: I had a previous version of this thread but it kinda got repurposed. Posting from my phone at the moment, but in one of my playthroufhs, I've smashed the Battanians out of seven or eight towns, including their entire heartland, taking them for the Sultan. At the same time, the rest of my...

forums.taleworlds.com

Issue is still present.

I seriously believe there is something ****ed with the way War Score is being calculated, because I'm personally stomping a mud-hole in other factions but they barely budge in their demand for tribute. The main things that seem to shift it are:
1. Being in other wars.
2. Having a truly massive amount of prisoners in my dungeons.
3. Time.

Everything else seems to have a marginal weighting in terms of determining who is winning the war.

I don't know if this is something the deliberately targets the player faction since other factions seem to go back and forth on paying and receiving tribute but it definitely feels like War Score isn't functioning in a way that makes sense. After taking multiple fiefs, it is a bit silly the enemy faction isn't trying to peace out of a war that they are very clearly losing in every respect.

There's a penalty to war score for having recently taken a fief. Power/party density (per fief) is part of the calculation. Milita do not count.
Kills by militia (in a siege, etc.) DO count, killing miliita does not count.
Wining sieges generally decreases war score, which prevents a blitzkrieg seige 3 feifs then peace out, rinse, repeat strategy.

Do you have an idea how to make the war score feel good, but not be too easy to cheese?

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

As for just making peace at good payments, the thing I find work is to just defeat their armies and not siege fiefs. Then I must keep checking the diplomacy screen because the AI will put out new parties, hire mercs and otherwise recover very quickly and the window for a good peace closes. I usually focus on taking fiefs from one faction and just defeat armies of any other that attack me and I can usually get a decent peace with unwanted attackers this way.

As for making it better, making the AI take longer to recover or produce parties hire mercs would make it more likely to make useful peace and also to expand and then make peace. Also the actual power of the faction should be more important to making peace with the player. I understand TW wants to stop AI snowballing, but for the player it will never make sense for a defeated (or near defeated) faction to not want peace when they're just getting perpetually stomped out. Also, I think it would be good in there was say a 20 day cool down when factions make peace where they cannot recruit form the fiefs other recent enemy. It's extremely stupid and annoying that your faction will keep voting to make peace with a faction (often letting out 50+ prisoners) just so they can recruit all the troops from YOUR OWN FIEFS and then declare war on you again.

 

[Brano]

There is no casus belli => there are no war goals. No internal strife for power within kingdoms. No succesion wars. No border disputes. No higher cause like "make empire great again" or "my religion/god will rule supreme in all lands" or "I'm just blood-thirsty psycho and will turn all into ashes". AI rulers are just mindless bots without cause

 

[azxcvbnm321]

Same for the player, what is your justification for an unprovoked attack and declaration of war? Just mindless conquering.

 

[TechnoSarge]

Hey, who needs to do unprovoked attacks???
According to the Encyclopedia, I am now fighting - get this - EIGHTEEN WARS at present. Only 4 wars are with other empires... because I recently paid off two. Of course, a bunch are rebels I may have already defeated, but last night rebels took over the last three towns I conquered from Aserai (literally the night before!). How they managed to oust my garrisons, pack 842 men willing to fight (yes, I reconquered one with that many!) plus field multiple units scurrying around the map is a mystery known only to TW.

I think it's called "end game." You're allowed to be the all-conquering hero you want to be, but behind you the roaches are all swarming to prevent some point you might designate as "game over."

I'm so sick of it and its pointlessness it may soon be "game over" for me & BL. And TW.

 

[Earth Dragon]

Taking fiefs causes a shift towards the one who lost the fief as to payment amounts. That really needs needs to be a bullet point in the OP.

 

[Emperor1997]

As for just making peace at good payments, the thing I find work is to just defeat their armies and not siege fiefs. Then I must keep checking the diplomacy screen because the AI will put out new parties, hire mercs and otherwise recover very quickly and the window for a good peace closes. I usually focus on taking fiefs from one faction and just defeat armies of any other that attack me and I can usually get a decent peace with unwanted attackers this way.

As for making it better, making the AI take longer to recover or produce parties hire mercs would make it more likely to make useful peace and also to expand and then make peace. Also the actual power of the faction should be more important to making peace with the player. I understand TW wants to stop AI snowballing, but for the player it will never make sense for a defeated (or near defeated) faction to not want peace when they're just getting perpetually stomped out. Also, I think it would be good in there was say a 20 day cool down when factions make peace where they cannot recruit form the fiefs other recent enemy. It's extremely stupid and annoying that your faction will keep voting to make peace with a faction (often letting out 50+ prisoners) just so they can recruit all the troops from YOUR OWN FIEFS and then declare war on you again.

They should simply block recruitment from neutral fiefs, or at least at an influence cost, like 50 influence for each troop.

 

[Lesbosisles]

The main things that seem to shift it are:
1. Being in other wars.
2. Having a truly massive amount of prisoners in my dungeons.
3. Time.

Capturing a settlement also shifts the score... to the advantage of your enemies. The lesser settlements they have, the more tribute YOU have to pay them

 

[Apocal]

Taking fiefs causes a shift towards the one who lost the fief as to payment amounts. That really needs needs to be a bullet point in the OP.

Capturing a settlement also shifts the score... to the advantage of your enemies. The lesser settlements they have, the more tribute YOU have to pay them

Yeah, I assume that is a bug and Duh mentioned they were taking a look at it.

 

[TechnoSarge]

As for making it better, making the AI take longer to recover or produce parties hire mercs would make it more likely to make useful peace and also to expand and then make peace. Also the actual power of the faction should be more important to making peace with the player.

In an effort to force settlement, I (late-game) refuse to release captive lords. After winning a field battle, I hoover them up from other parties in my army.

If we take a fief, then I as King own it until the Council meets - I will go to the Dungeon and remove all captives to my personal party... sometimes hundreds! My next stop is to ransom all those non-top-tier types I'm not going to recruit to my army from. This way, I get the captive lords, who I keep, and I prevent the enemy re-conquering the fief after I leave and instantly having a meaty garrison from the released captives.

I add all perks that improve my odds of keeping lordly prisoners. I'm often carrying around more than 30 captive lords these days, and losing fewer than I used to. Each lord cooling his jets in chains under my eye is not raising another party. The only way I'll release any voluntarily is when I make peace with his faction.

The comment above about "actual power of the faction" applies here. I'm actively removing war parties and the potential to make more. But I can't say it shifts the tribute demands.

 

[Lesbosisles]

that is a bug and Duh mentioned they were taking a look at it.

If so, it should be considered a top priority issue to be fixed ASAP, since it really breaks the whole war/peace mechanism. The war goal here is only a territory expansion, i.e. capturing fiefs. But capturing fiefs only prolongs the war, not the other way around.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I don't think it's a bug, just a bad choice. What it is, when you capture another fief it changes your faction power/fiefs calculation so suddenly you think you're weaker (yeah it's sounds stupid) and the enemy thinks it's stronger, so they want payment and you are willing to give it. It should be offset by the enemy loosing that power from the loss..... but at some point that AI has been given such fast recovery it just always thinks it has enough. As described above, extreme prisoner hoarding will get around this as they simply can't field any parties anymore but it's a double edged sword as this will make you side want to make peace (for $$$) even though really it would be 100X better to just finish the faction off.

 

[Lesbosisles]

but at some point that AI has been given such fast recovery it just always thinks it has enough. A

This turns the late game into a poor quality never-ending war simulator. Factions become too big with all those clans, you can't catch'em all life Pokemons, they are all scattered around the world. You beat them, put some of the in a cell, they escape, the war never ends and you're the one who should pay the tribute, although, you've taken half of their fiefs...

 

[Antaeus]

prisoners prisoner prisoners.

There is no point to wars except to take prisoners.

Based on the way wars unfold, that is the game's real reason for war, that is why wars happen. To take captives to force the other to submit. Wars start because they have lots of free lords and they end because they don't.

But as mentioned... gotta keep an eye on things, you can be dragging around half their faction in chains and they'll still fight.

There must be some sort of 'expected party numbers vs actual party numbers' calculation going on and once you reach a threshold of prisoners they can't meet the calculation and they'll beg for peace, but until they reach that threshold, they'll suffer astounding loss of land and still fight on. I could capture half their cities without taking prisoners and wars go on and on and on. But I could take no cities and 30 prisoners, then peace comes quick.

It can be exploited. To keep them at war, just release prisoners. So long as they're only at war with you, no peace request will come, no chance of having to overrule your nobles and losing 1000 influence to stay at war.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

no chance of having to overrule your nobles and losing 1000 influence to stay at war.

Another way is to just let them have the peace and just attack a lord directly to re-start it, as ruler you don't get docked influence for this type of war starting .

 

[Ningauble]

And what about the obvious scenario, where the enemy king is captured ( ie in nonplayer faction vs faction AI wars )?
I see this nuance recurring in the world events log, almost day after day .......the AI wars keep going on .........
Should not capturing a king, at least generally, bring hostilities to a halt, with a capitulation, and even a huge ransom ?
Or even, perhaps, an execution ?

 

[Lesbosisles]

Should not capturing a king, at least generally, bring hostilities to a halt, with a capitulation, and even a huge ransom ?
Or even, perhaps, an execution ?

That would be a good idea, but, unfortunately, Taleworlds has decided that the King should be just another noble NPC with no special features. Capturing or killing a king brings no real consequences, AI just immediately chooses a new king, but it doesn't affect any Kingdom decisions regarding wars.

Could've at least made it so capturing a king counted as capturing 10-15 lords for an AI.

P. S. I hope someone from TW is reading this topic and taking notes.

@Duh_TaleWorlds @Dejan we want wars and policies to make sense!

 

[Ningauble]

unfortunately, Taleworlds has decided that the King should be just another noble NPC with no special features.

Indeed.

They even give Raganvad, Derthert, Caladog, et al interesting " back stories " that hint at their personalities and ambitions, and imply that traits may be active in the game, but it is just a facade .........