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Yes, and I would even hesistate to use the word "corrupted" because it implies those liberal democracies weren't destined to fail. One thing that irks me about the use of the term "strongman" is that it is often applied equally to Josef Stalin and random idiots like Bolsonaro. If a clown like him is all it takes to destroy liberal democracy, then it is fundamentally doomed anyway, something I don't believe is the case (yet).



None of those people were elected. They came to power in coups or civil wars, and were propped up by minority elements inside or outside the country. It didn't matter whether people in Cambodia wanted an undemocratic ruler or not, because the Khmer Rouge just came out of the mountains and seized all the means of state control in the country. Even Hitler, who participated in the liberal democratic system for years, eventually realised he couldn't win and just seized control.

This is another reason why I don't like comparisons of Trump and Duterte et cetera to these 20th century autocrats. If you are talking about a population voting for a strong undemocratic leader during a crisis, then pick an example of someone who was actually elected democratically, not someone like Stalin who just sort of shuffled his way up the party apparatus after Lenin died, or Pol Pot who was propped up by the US and China.

Hitler was actually elected democratically. He tried to do a coup d'etat earlier in the century and got imprisoned for it. He took the time to reflect and figure out other means to achieve what he wanted. He then went the democratic route and got the popularity vote and became a strong undemocratic leader during a crisis.

"The votes that the Nazis received in the 1932 elections established the Nazi Party as the largest parliamentary faction of the Weimar Republic government. Hitler was appointed as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933."

There are many similarities to make between Hitlers rise to power and Trumps presidency. Their rise to power, the rousing of the people, the fanatics following them, their radical, nationalist ideas and pride. Imagine how close he got on January 6th.

And there are some forms of democratic government that are dangerously undemocratic. Most West-European democracies have a multitude of parties to voice a broad spectrum of opinions from the people. Different parties fluctuate in size, depending on the wishes of the people they're representing. That way there are always 3, 4 or perhaps 5 parties necessary to have a house majority. And you need a house majority to govern succesfully. So there's always multiple parties deciding over policy. If there's only a 2 party system you take away alot of choice. Do you want either this or that, 1 or 0, black or white? There is no grey, no 0.5, no this & that. Its either / or. Which also makes it dangerous. Because the vast majority of the people is fine with whatever, just dont mess it up. But there is also a small minority that are leaning towards extremes. And with just a 2 party system that small minority can dictate and influence the future of an entire country, including that vast majority that is fine with whatever.

With a multi party system that small minority with a more extreme stance will vote for a party with a more extreme stance. That party now consists mostly of people with those beliefs. The vast majority which is fine with whatever will vote somewhere in the middle, sometimes left, sometimes right, sometimes green, sometimes economic. And sometimes all the way to the far left.
What you end up with are 3/4/5 parties that represent what the majority of the people belief and want from their government.

January 6th was a very dangerous day which could've ended up way different then we might've expected. It was a day that came extremely close to being the end of modern democracy. So I agree with you in saying that liberal democracies are corruptable, but some more then others. A lot more.
 
Naaah.

Before Hitler got elected there were several coup attempts (Kappputsch 1920, Beer Hall/Hitlerputsch 1923, Küstrinputsch 1923), several extreme economic/financial crises + all parties in Germany had gigantic paramilitary arms that fought each other and the police.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roter_Frontkämpferbund - RFB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichsbanner_Schwarz-Rot-Gold - Reichsbanner
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Stahlhelm,_Bund_der_Frontsoldaten - Stahlhelm

I don`t see many parallels compared to Trump and his "white trash gang".
 
I don`t see many parallels compared to Trump and his "white trash gang".
The US is full of anti-establishment militia groups ready to be taken over by some wild populist. The US military command (which would be responsible for suppressing them in case of insurgency) is so far being resistant to populist anti-democratic attempts to abuse it, but can this last forever? Imagine a series of Trumps promoting fascisty kinds of soldiers over a few administrations and undermining other democratic institutions as well, and the picture may look bleak.
 
"The votes that the Nazis received in the 1932 elections established the Nazi Party as the largest parliamentary faction of the Weimar Republic government. Hitler was appointed as Chancellor of Germany on 30 January 1933."

In that year gap they had to conduct another sham election, basically at gunpoint, to secure a mandate, and even after that they still didn't win a majority. The Nazis did not seize power democratically, despite bending the definition of "election" to its extreme limits.

There are many similarities to make between Hitlers rise to power and Trumps presidency. Their rise to power, the rousing of the people, the fanatics following them, their radical, nationalist ideas and pride. Imagine how close he got on January 6th.
January 6th was a very dangerous day which could've ended up way different then we might've expected. It was a day that came extremely close to being the end of modern democracy.

Hitler was at the head of a party which fought gun battles in the streets with communists and massacred Jews for over a decade. It's complete hyperbole to compare the stupid boomer march in 2021 to the open civil war and constant political assassinations happening in 1920s Germany. You have to think America has an extremely fragile state apparatus to say that they got anywhere close to seizing power in a putsch.

I see what you're saying about extremist parties developing when there are no other alternatives, but I have yet to see an actual historical example of a liberal democracy dismantling itself with fringe parties. There is always a parallel power structure, usually the military, that they use to seize real power, and the democratic process is just the veneer of legitimation. Even the Timurids would respect local customs and governance structures right after massacring half the civilian population.
 
This is another reason why I don't like comparisons of Trump and Duterte et cetera to these 20th century autocrats. If you are talking about a population voting for a strong undemocratic leader during a crisis, then pick an example of someone who was actually elected democratically, not someone like Stalin who just sort of shuffled his way up the party apparatus after Lenin died, or Pol Pot who was propped up by the US and China.

You're assuming that the US electoral system is democratic, which is fundamentally false.
 
In that year gap they had to conduct another sham election, basically at gunpoint, to secure a mandate, and even after that they still didn't win a majority. The Nazis did not seize power democratically, despite bending the definition of "election" to its extreme limits.

It was by far the largest party but you're right, did lack a majority. I had to look up the numbers but it had 37% of the votes, the rest divided among multiple with the 2nd at 21% and the 3rd at 14% of the votes. Hitlers NSDAP won by a landslide, saying he wasn't democratically elected is just wrong. What he did after he won the popularity contest is redundant for deciding whether or not he was elected. Bending the outcome of the election to gain totalitarian power is the 2nd chapter in the dictator playbook.

Hitler was at the head of a party which fought gun battles in the streets with communists and massacred Jews for over a decade. It's complete hyperbole to compare the stupid boomer march in 2021 to the open civil war and constant political assassinations happening in 1920s Germany. You have to think America has an extremely fragile state apparatus to say that they got anywhere close to seizing power in a putsch.

I see what you're saying about extremist parties developing when there are no other alternatives, but I have yet to see an actual historical example of a liberal democracy dismantling itself with fringe parties. There is always a parallel power structure, usually the military, that they use to seize real power, and the democratic process is just the veneer of legitimation. Even the Timurids would respect local customs and governance structures right after massacring half the civilian population.
I absolutely think America has an extremely fragile state apparatus. I think there are so many paralels to be drawn between that period of time where Hitler wasn't outright killing jews (Kristalnacht was still a long time away). You think the brownshirts (militia) are so different from the american fanatics going to rallys with guns?
1200px-Charlottesville_%27Unite_the_Right%27_Rally_%2835780274914%29_crop.jpg

The hostilities against the jews was ever so gradual, incremental and in small steps. The bar between what was unspeakable became lower and lower and the atrocities came more and more often. How many Trump flags are there on the streets? How many cars are driving around with Trump stickers? His supporters were fanatics. The same fanatics that, 85 years ago, would block civilians from entering jewish shops.

And do you mean this boomer march?
trump_supporters_AP.jpg

Trump supporters were rallying outside voting stations, armed to the teeth.

I put it into an off-topic tag because it is going a bit off-topic. Don't want the thread to completely derail.

EDIT: Just using this to point out that dictators can get elected. Without anyone knowing what atrocities they might execute. Or knowing and not caring.
5i6muc.jpg
 
Rumors say Minister of Defense had a heart attack.
I wonder why all of a sudden....

Huh, seeing so many 'former KGB member' tactics, I wouldnt be surprised there was an attempt to poison him. Or may be there will be one soon.
 
That sounds like more conspiracy stuff. If Putin wants to remove someone from his post, he just needs to say it, not sit under their bed and put polonium in their tea when they are asleep.
Genuine heart attacks happen to generals in wars, when they are under a lot of stress.
[Brauchitsch] The army's failure to take Moscow earned Hitler's enmity, and things worsened for him, as he suffered a heart attack in November.
In Jan 1942, Reichenau suffered a heart attack, and was placed on a plane for hospitalization in Leipzig, Germany.
On the way to the command post, the car came into the open and was attacked. Stumme jumped out of the car and apparently was holding onto the side while the driver drove out of range. He was found dead along the track the next day, with no wound that could be seen. He was known to have high blood pressure and it was thought he had died of a heart attack. :grin:
 
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Heart attacks are so common they can't be suspicious in themselves.
Cardiovascular diseases (CVDs) are the leading cause of death globally. An estimated 17.9 million people died from CVDs in 2019, representing 32% of all global deaths. Of these deaths, 85% were due to heart attack and stroke.
 


When you finally realize that papersoldiers can`t fight and your boss is freaking out. Ouch.


"Putin feels misled by Russian Military and has lost trust in top brass."


Putins power comes from the elites, the lawmakers and the military.
He shut out lawmakers, elites are abandoning him and he himself is turning his back on the military?

This can't go on for long. Am I correct in saying that his power is becoming shaky or is that just wishful thinking?
 
That sounds like more conspiracy stuff. If Putin wants to remove someone from his post, he just needs to say it
Thats another problem of authoritarian macho-man regimes. Or compare them with Mafia.

Democratic regimes can afford being weak and responsible. Note how often authoritarian regimes are simply incapable of saying out loud "we have failed in X". They tend to blame it on someone. America, jews, traitors etc.

So same goes over here. Ye simply cant dissmiss defense minister Shoigu. It would be demoralizing for the army aswell. Ukrainian secret services post audios of russian soldiers calling home (they use ordinary cell phones for that) and there were moments when they claimed "we are almost winning! Odessa has been taken, Mariupol and Kharkiv have fallen! And we gonna get Kyiv soon!".
And all of a sudden Shoigu is dissmissed? Thats a bad signal.

Besides, as a Mafia structure in its core, if you lay off someone of your close circle - he may be a good Witness against you and your gang and start saying unwanted things.

So poisoning him is the cheapest and practical way. They do have experience after all.

....

Also, it seems that Kyiv retreat is a false move. There are reports they gonna strike on Kyiv next week.

This can't go on for long. Am I correct in saying that his power is becoming shaky or is that just wishful thinking?
Its doomed. The final countdown is on. Its a toxic and inadequate regime. My bets are there will be no president Putin in 2023. And he called it all on him by himself. And a chance in civil war in Russia is high from now on.
 
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So same goes over here. Ye simply cant dissmiss defense minister Shoigu. It would be demoralizing for the army aswell. Ukrainian secret services post audios of russian soldiers calling home (they use ordinary cell phones for that) and there were moments when they claimed "we are almost winning! Odessa has been taken, Mariupol and Kharkiv have fallen! And we gonna get Kyiv soon!".
And all of a sudden Shoigu is dissmissed? Thats a bad signal.

I think a bigger issue in dismissing people so high up in rank, and so close to the top is that those directly below Putin hold a lot of power themselves, and hold it unilaterally. A military leader being let go in a democratic country is survivable as that leader doesn't really have roots deep enough to effect a coup, or to take his stuff and break away. They probably don't even have a force loyal to them.

In authoritarian countries where very few people hold power, very little accountability happens, and corruption is used as a way to reward and control. Those few who do hold power hold very real power. Shoigu likely has people that are loyal to him and him only - above Putin and above country, and that being the case isn't that strange a thing inside states like these. Putin and those around him might not even be able to remove Shoigu without bringing massive amounts of soft power to bear.
 
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