Ukraine Today
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This is horrible.
Since the orcs have abandoned small cities north-west of Kyiv, Ukrainian troops and police have entered these cities...
The sight-scene is terrible - dozen of civilians were murdered. People lying on the roads, dozens of videos with it. Numerous photos of men (with the top off) killed with their hands bound behind back in one spot. For what f*cking reasons?? The Nazis did the same with the jews, but according to their idealogy. And they have never stated "we have come to liberate you".
But these russian animals have murdered hundreads and maybe thousands of civilians in occupied cities just like that. Just for fun.
I cannot post photos and videos like that here though.
21st century... Europe... for f sake. Unbelievable.
Since the orcs have abandoned small cities north-west of Kyiv, Ukrainian troops and police have entered these cities...
The sight-scene is terrible - dozen of civilians were murdered. People lying on the roads, dozens of videos with it. Numerous photos of men (with the top off) killed with their hands bound behind back in one spot. For what f*cking reasons?? The Nazis did the same with the jews, but according to their idealogy. And they have never stated "we have come to liberate you".
But these russian animals have murdered hundreads and maybe thousands of civilians in occupied cities just like that. Just for fun.
I cannot post photos and videos like that here though.
21st century... Europe... for f sake. Unbelievable.
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Inappropriate behavior
Its not about the war. Its about <snip> being animals. Most common view on the <Russian> soldiers is dollars and jewelry. Some APCs are filled with tablets, microwave ovens, carpets, phones and TVs. Just an ordinary robbery. As if it is not a '2nd strongest army of the world' and a 1st or even 2nd world country one's. But some band of savages that havent seen any civilization.
Heres a russian <snip> POV video:
They are based on some occupied apartment (in a village most likely) and they show off by the end of the video that "ukrainians are so fu*king rich they EAT NUTELLA!"
Not something common russian <snip> can afford to eat I assume...
Heres a russian <snip> POV video:
They are based on some occupied apartment (in a village most likely) and they show off by the end of the video that "ukrainians are so fu*king rich they EAT NUTELLA!"
Not something common russian <snip> can afford to eat I assume...
由板主最后编辑:
I get that there is a war going on but come on man. The last time I saw this kind of language on this site it was aimed at black americans looting shops during a riot, and the poster got instantly muted. I don't see why this is any different.
I agree, I have been seeing ever more reckless and violent language against the Russians on the internet (Facebook explicitly allowing this on its turf didn't help).
People get very angry over seeing death and suffering, but characterizing all Russians as subhumans that need to be killed is disgusting and needs to stop, at least on civilized forums with active moderation.
When we get evidence of Ukrainian war crimes, particularly those of its Nazi militia, we won't call for all Ukrainians to be shot because they are all Nazis.
War is a messy hell, and no one emerges from it smelling of roses.
It's important to document war crimes and gather evidence, so the perpetrators may be prosecuted, or at least doxxed, some day.
People get very angry over seeing death and suffering, but characterizing all Russians as subhumans that need to be killed is disgusting and needs to stop, at least on civilized forums with active moderation.
When we get evidence of Ukrainian war crimes, particularly those of its Nazi militia, we won't call for all Ukrainians to be shot because they are all Nazis.
War is a messy hell, and no one emerges from it smelling of roses.
It's important to document war crimes and gather evidence, so the perpetrators may be prosecuted, or at least doxxed, some day.
You all say that because you dont speak russian and you cannot listen to what they say. These audious posted how soldiers call home, speak with their mothers, brag about "Ive managed to steal a TV and we gonna cover our loans!". And how they say they are killing civilians. Just like that, for no reason.
And how they swear with no limits while talking to their mothers. And what mothers say? Do they condemn these actions? Hell no - they swear in return. It is how they communicate in ordinary life.
But what is also 'fun' to watch is the survey on the streets of Russian cities. The majority of its population supports it. Cant post it, because no subs, but would be neat to post these interviews and combine it with photos of mass graves with civilians been shot with hands bound behind back. And which happened 20-30 km away from your home.
Heres a reaction post of former russian minister on this matter on facebook. There oughta be a 'translate' button. He cannot grasp this all aswell.
And how they swear with no limits while talking to their mothers. And what mothers say? Do they condemn these actions? Hell no - they swear in return. It is how they communicate in ordinary life.
But what is also 'fun' to watch is the survey on the streets of Russian cities. The majority of its population supports it. Cant post it, because no subs, but would be neat to post these interviews and combine it with photos of mass graves with civilians been shot with hands bound behind back. And which happened 20-30 km away from your home.
Heres a reaction post of former russian minister on this matter on facebook. There oughta be a 'translate' button. He cannot grasp this all aswell.
It's not. We don't allow calls for violence, dehumanization, or other discrimination against anyone on this forum. MadVader put it well, and in line with our moderation policy.
I am not middle aged quite yet, sorry to disappoint.
I can't even copy paste his post in Google translate, which I never noticed being unable to do before, and the link that he posted in a comment has been removed. Are you sure that you are not falling into a disinformation rabbit hole? I wouldn't be surprised if Putin's people even were spreading those, hoping to get out of people exactly the kind of reaction that you're having.
This is worth watching. He talks specifically about the combat videos that have been posted online, but I think what he's saying can be applied to all the photos, videos, and media coverage concerning Ukraine: think about what you're seeing, take it with a grain of salt, and remember that for everything we know about what's happening there's a lot going on that we're not seeing or reading about.
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Maybe this will help you understand the outrage.
www.hrw.org
I see poeple try to play safe and 'correct' here, but the Russian army has quire a record on its back, especially if you look at Chechnya and Dagestan, so please consider thinking well before playing the 'both sides' card or `it's war, things happen'. When judging all that is happening in this war, take in account its context and the amount of propaganda the Russian-speaking population is being fed to make it believe about the necessity to 'cleanse Ukraine of Fascism', not to mention an extremely long history of Ukrainians being treated as 'little brothers', 'stupid peasants' or as any other synonim for subhuman.
I wholeheartedly recommend this publication: https://digital.lib.washington.edu/...readgold_No39_2003.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
This is how Ukrainians have been painted in the minds of Russians for centuries, and yes, they are still labeled as such. I live in an ex-Soviet country and if any of you heard how people use to portray Ukrainians you'd probably drop your jaw.
With that said, I'm quite disgusted by the attempts to compare this with whatever stuff happens in American politics, BLM drama and the 'war is hell' discourse.
We are dealing with an increasingly authritarian state and a society that has been mauled with anti-Ukrainian and anti-Western propaganda for decades, and I'm witnessing the results of this concerted effort in my own country. I work side by side with many Russian-speaking people and fellow Moldovans, and I'm absolutely appalled how many of them refuse to believe any hints of Russians doing anything wrong in Ukraine. They absolutely buy the propaganda on denazification and will label any atrocity they see as fake or committed by Ukrainians to blame Russia. If you could ever hear this informational trash every single morning you come to work, you wouldn't talk like this. So, if you're interested whether there is popular support for the war: ****ing yes, and it also spreads beyond Russia's borders.
Regarding what Trueten said, I'm pretty sure the 'animals' reference was aimed at the preparators, while I agree the 'orcs' insults should be toned down.
P.S. Don't forget about Khadyrov's personal army fighting there. Those guys also have quite a reputation.
Edit: Apparently I'm a caveman.
Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas
Human Rights Watch has documented several cases of Russian military forces committing laws-of-war violations against civilians in occupied areas of the Chernihiv, Kharkiv, and Kyiv regions of Ukraine.
I see poeple try to play safe and 'correct' here, but the Russian army has quire a record on its back, especially if you look at Chechnya and Dagestan, so please consider thinking well before playing the 'both sides' card or `it's war, things happen'. When judging all that is happening in this war, take in account its context and the amount of propaganda the Russian-speaking population is being fed to make it believe about the necessity to 'cleanse Ukraine of Fascism', not to mention an extremely long history of Ukrainians being treated as 'little brothers', 'stupid peasants' or as any other synonim for subhuman.
I wholeheartedly recommend this publication: https://digital.lib.washington.edu/...readgold_No39_2003.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
This is how Ukrainians have been painted in the minds of Russians for centuries, and yes, they are still labeled as such. I live in an ex-Soviet country and if any of you heard how people use to portray Ukrainians you'd probably drop your jaw.
With that said, I'm quite disgusted by the attempts to compare this with whatever stuff happens in American politics, BLM drama and the 'war is hell' discourse.
We are dealing with an increasingly authritarian state and a society that has been mauled with anti-Ukrainian and anti-Western propaganda for decades, and I'm witnessing the results of this concerted effort in my own country. I work side by side with many Russian-speaking people and fellow Moldovans, and I'm absolutely appalled how many of them refuse to believe any hints of Russians doing anything wrong in Ukraine. They absolutely buy the propaganda on denazification and will label any atrocity they see as fake or committed by Ukrainians to blame Russia. If you could ever hear this informational trash every single morning you come to work, you wouldn't talk like this. So, if you're interested whether there is popular support for the war: ****ing yes, and it also spreads beyond Russia's borders.
Regarding what Trueten said, I'm pretty sure the 'animals' reference was aimed at the preparators, while I agree the 'orcs' insults should be toned down.
P.S. Don't forget about Khadyrov's personal army fighting there. Those guys also have quite a reputation.
Edit: Apparently I'm a caveman.
You are alive! And still have a couple of good decades to fight as an international mercenary.
Dude, we read the reports, just like you, and we understand the outrage. It's not our first war rodeo.
I've seen this cycle of atrocity and "counter-atrocity" in the Balkan Wars in the 90s. The key ingredient was dehumanization of the enemy, so you would kill them with less restraint, civilians or soldiers. That's why I object to it and the accompanying calls for wholesale killing of Russian soldiers, POWs or otherwise.
It's also easy to see what this could mean to ethnic Russians on the wrong side of the front, especially at the hands of Nazi militia. (These guys are out there, despite the non-coverage from our media. No one should accept Nazi militia as part of their armed forces, yet Ukraine somehow did.)
Yes, it's war and it brings the worst in people, and it's not by any stretch of imagination restricted to one side. So don't tell me I'm playing both sides, it's human nature that is playing both sides.
Do I also need to explain I'm on Ukraine's side not to get attacked for allegedly being pro-Russian? I don't think I need to, but it's "you are with us or against us" in the propaganda war on the internet, the space for nuanced debate is shrinking. It's sad and predictable.
FFS every time you bring up some mythical 'Nazi ukrainian militia'. Who are they? Are they right here in this room? Russia Today user much? Show them to me. Im 33 years old and havent seen any 'nazi' through out the whole time im living in Ukraine.
And for what ever reasons nazis even appear in Ukraine?
Neonazis usually appear in former Empires countries with the bitter taste of "We had an Empire!" and/or in white native population countries with some amount of other race immigrants inhabiting the cities. Well heres a surprise - the amount of other colored races (afro, arabian, chinese etc) is equal to 1% maybe and the biggest concentration of immigrants is in the capital - and even here I would get very lucky to stumble upon a representative of other race once a week.
All you reproduce is Russian propaganda with this nazi thing.
One might ask "But if Russians speak about ua nazis it cant be based of a thin air?". Well, duh. It is.
You know that USSR sucks, and the only thing that USSR did good - it won the WW2. Thus it has been transformed into a religious cult (yes, thats right - religious) and so whenever Russia wants to attack anyone - they occuse them in being nazis. Thus they dehumanize their enemies and make em self an excuse to treat them with whatever cruelty - the mass will support. Because its a Holy deed to do harm to the nazi.
Reports claim that in Bucha Messacre rus soldiers tortued and murdered local... teachers. Hm? Why teachers? Well, since their brainwashing machine placed a thought there are nazis over here everywhere, they interrogated teachers for teaching local kids with some nazi bs and russophobic stuff etc...
Have you ever heard of a Caucasian country Georgia? Well, the one that Russia invaded in August 2008. You wouldnt believe it, but by that time georgians were also occused of being a nazi govt - https://www.rbc.ru/politics/11/08/2008/5703ce3e9a79473dc81482bb
Medvedev was a president back then.
最后编辑:
azov is a thing.
it's a fairly small unit, yes. it's probably not very representative of the wider ukrainian military, sure. but it is a thing, and they are full of nazis, and ukraine did fold them into the national guard.
obviously the russian propaganda very much overstates the nazi problem that exists in ukraine, and loves to pretend there's far more of them and they're far more supported than in reality. and obviously russia has a lot of nazis in their own ranks, too. obviously russia's claims of nazi government and "denazification" and so forth are just poor excuses.
but that doesn't make azov not real, or not nazis. there's no point pretending they're not.
Azov Battalion have self-identified as Nazis several times, and claimed over 30% of their personnel identify as Nazis. They wear Nazi symbols (like the black sun) on their uniforms. They're not shy about it, but they are a small portion of the Ukrainian military and not a good representation of it. As far as I can tell, they were only given official recognition as a Ukrainian national guard unit because they had effectively organized themselves during the annexation of Crimea. Monty's spot on.
For anyone who may be curious, forum staff will not allow pro-invasion rhetoric on this platform, and Russian propaganda material is only tolerated for academic interest and analysis. It's to be kept in this thread, and accurately labeled for what it is when it is posted. This thread will not become a pocket of anti-Ukrainian sentiment or dehumanization. It will also not become a safe haven for dehumanizing Russians, who are subjected to such propaganda every day. Remember that those who believe the propaganda are also being abused by their state. They are not faultless in this, but they are still human. There are also many Russians who are against the invasion, and do not believe their government's reporting.
For anyone who may be curious, forum staff will not allow pro-invasion rhetoric on this platform, and Russian propaganda material is only tolerated for academic interest and analysis. It's to be kept in this thread, and accurately labeled for what it is when it is posted. This thread will not become a pocket of anti-Ukrainian sentiment or dehumanization. It will also not become a safe haven for dehumanizing Russians, who are subjected to such propaganda every day. Remember that those who believe the propaganda are also being abused by their state. They are not faultless in this, but they are still human. There are also many Russians who are against the invasion, and do not believe their government's reporting.
Dude, are you playing us for stupid? I can literally write a diploma about Azov, their international recruiting and merchandising during the current conflict. It's not something I want to do.
It's also not only Azov, but similar militia units like Aidar that have neo-Nazi leanings and are or were financed by shady oligarchs. There were reports from Mariupol of their attacks on local Russian civilians under the siege - credible or not, it's hard to tell. Interestingly enough, the same picture from those reports couple of weeks ago (woman burned with a swastika) was just used today by pro-Ukraine propaganda as a Ukrainian victim of Russian occupation, which is even less credible, given the reuse of the photo.
Denying that any of this exists or is relevant is not doing any favors to your (or Ukraine's) credibility.
Russians of a certain stripe have been fixated on Ukraine's collaboration with the Germans in WW2 and the anti-Soviet insurgency of the OUN/UPA which supposedly lasted until 1956, for a very long time now, long predating Euromaidan, and are deeply resentful of the fact that modern Ukrainians commemorate figures like Bandera, Konovalets, Melnyk and Shukhevych. It's enough for them to slander the entire country or its government as being pro-Nazi or soft on Nazis or whatever when the Hero of Ukraine award is given posthumously to figures they consider criminals. They collate disparate facts like that the Germans raised over 100,000 Ukrainian auxiliaries in the Schutzmannschaften, who participated in ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust, furthermore the existence of Ukrainian division of the Waffen-SS, the sight of neo-pagan (suspected white nationalist) symbols and Nazi imagery among protesters at Euromaidan, the Bandera portraits everywhere of course, the incorporation of the Azov Battalion into the national guard and so on. These don't all add up to anything when we're talking about a nation's real identity in the present day, defined by millions of Ukrainians, but it adds up for them. Because they're seeing what they want to see - they want and need Ukraine to be overrun with fascists, so that they can liberate it and reincorporate it, and so they can take revenge on the nigh-mythological Banderovets that they've constructed over the past 70 years. All they have to do is muddy the waters by equating all Ukrainian nationalism with Nazism and the ideological basis is established, but it works a lot better on their own domestic audience than it does on international crowds.
When some suspicious monuments in Ukrainian-Canadian graveyards were recently discovered by concerned citizens, I joked with a friend that there are no more Nazis in Ukraine today, because they all fled here to Canada. If that were actually true then I'm glad they're buried here where they'll be largely forgotten, so that Ukraine today can move on and heal from that war and all its villains. I'll say this, and maybe i'll never post in this thread again: I am a russophile, I have always loved their history and culture, and I have for a long time considered Ukraine a part of that shared cultural space and likewise admired it, but today Ukraine cannot exist within Russia without exploitation and marginalization economically, culturally, politically. That was clear in 2014, and they have chosen independence, complete independence, and have demonstrated in this war their total dedication to that project such that no Russian chauvanist or irredentist can honestly deny. Putin has destroyed any chance, any hope, however dim, of ever reuniting these two nations. He has created a new Ukrainian nationalism by starting this war and waging it with such unwarranted brutality, such reckless if not deliberate and malicious disregard for human life, and frankly such incompetence that it reflects poorly on him and his nation. He and his generals have seemingly tried to render the country uninhabitable and punish Ukraine, not to liberate it. These recent discoveries in Bucha, they are symptomatic of that whole attitude - if they can't have you, they must destroy you, because if you don't want to be Russian, you must be a Nazi. I don't agree with their attitude, I have never felt this way, and I condemn it. It's insane! Victory Day, the 9th of May, is coming up soon. There you will see a Trump Rally in all but name, and perhaps Russia's new war-dead of 2022 will be exploited for whipping up more patriotic fervour and deepening anti-Ukrainian hate. Pay attention, if you have the stomach for it. Ukraine recently switched from using the orange-and-black ribbon to commemorate '41-'45 (taken from the ubiquitous Victory over Germany Medal) to using the more international poppy as a sign of remembrance. This is perfectly understandable when you see how the old ribbon has become an icon of Putinism, chauvanism and thinly veiled warmongering, contrary to the peace won by those very veterans whom they have turned into religious idols. In fact the whole Patriotic War has become a cult. It turns my ****ing stomach to watch their parades in recent years, just as everything in recent months do. I can't remember the last time I felt such repugnance toward something in my life. Likewise the slogan "glory to Ukraine, glory to the heroes" used to make me cringe but.... maybe I'm warming up to it.
When some suspicious monuments in Ukrainian-Canadian graveyards were recently discovered by concerned citizens, I joked with a friend that there are no more Nazis in Ukraine today, because they all fled here to Canada. If that were actually true then I'm glad they're buried here where they'll be largely forgotten, so that Ukraine today can move on and heal from that war and all its villains. I'll say this, and maybe i'll never post in this thread again: I am a russophile, I have always loved their history and culture, and I have for a long time considered Ukraine a part of that shared cultural space and likewise admired it, but today Ukraine cannot exist within Russia without exploitation and marginalization economically, culturally, politically. That was clear in 2014, and they have chosen independence, complete independence, and have demonstrated in this war their total dedication to that project such that no Russian chauvanist or irredentist can honestly deny. Putin has destroyed any chance, any hope, however dim, of ever reuniting these two nations. He has created a new Ukrainian nationalism by starting this war and waging it with such unwarranted brutality, such reckless if not deliberate and malicious disregard for human life, and frankly such incompetence that it reflects poorly on him and his nation. He and his generals have seemingly tried to render the country uninhabitable and punish Ukraine, not to liberate it. These recent discoveries in Bucha, they are symptomatic of that whole attitude - if they can't have you, they must destroy you, because if you don't want to be Russian, you must be a Nazi. I don't agree with their attitude, I have never felt this way, and I condemn it. It's insane! Victory Day, the 9th of May, is coming up soon. There you will see a Trump Rally in all but name, and perhaps Russia's new war-dead of 2022 will be exploited for whipping up more patriotic fervour and deepening anti-Ukrainian hate. Pay attention, if you have the stomach for it. Ukraine recently switched from using the orange-and-black ribbon to commemorate '41-'45 (taken from the ubiquitous Victory over Germany Medal) to using the more international poppy as a sign of remembrance. This is perfectly understandable when you see how the old ribbon has become an icon of Putinism, chauvanism and thinly veiled warmongering, contrary to the peace won by those very veterans whom they have turned into religious idols. In fact the whole Patriotic War has become a cult. It turns my ****ing stomach to watch their parades in recent years, just as everything in recent months do. I can't remember the last time I felt such repugnance toward something in my life. Likewise the slogan "glory to Ukraine, glory to the heroes" used to make me cringe but.... maybe I'm warming up to it.
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