Troop Formations!

[Nogitsune]

I for one would like to see initial orders for your troops.

Why would this be useful? Well, if you can set up starting orders for your troop groups, it opens up possibilities for new formation and order options.

For example, archers could be set to stand ground, while infantry could be ordered to protect the archer group, placing themselves a good  10 to 20 paces in front of the archers in a line formation.

True, this can be done with commands... however, from the start of the battle, you would need to move into position, and give numerous orders... at which point, the enemy will be making its move. With initial orders/formations, it frees up time to fine tune your orders in the field, rather than yelling out "Hey idiots, don;t charge them like that!" at every fight.

Another possibility of this initial orders screen could be group tactics... Ie, archers could be set to favor high ground, cavalry set to circle and flank the enemy, or infantry set  to stop and brace their spears should cavalry charge.

Such modifying tactics could be made available based on the tactics skill.

One order/formation might be a defensive advance... wherein the selected group advances in formation, stopping to brace spears against calvary.  Such would be slower than a fullout charge.

 

[Cainor]

Formations should be an easy thing to do - we already have a single row line - and it is whats actually missing in game.
Officers are also missing.
Taunts and voice.
Improved GUI.

 

[Porcorosso]

A fan for new formation commands and better AI! no more silly ai just running in a ugly clump at you

it gets boring very quickly if you know thats what the AI does in almost every battle (bar sieges) 

 

[EnDSchultz]

I think you've all got your heads in the clouds with this formation business. Again, as I did with the Spears thread, I need to point out this thread was made years ago with the same suggestions recycling again and again every few bumps.

Simple fact is that you'd need to make radical changes to the game in order to make these formations and tactics worthwhile. What if your spears could form into a square and your horses into a wedge? I know just as well as the next guy your cavalry wedge is just going to charge into the enemy spearwall and get massacred (if they get around to actually making spears decent, that is). In order to make formations and tactics work, this game needs pretty much a total redesign of the command UI, maps, and battle AI.

Just face it ain't gonna happen and let the modding community do what they can.

 

[Arganosh]

Unless I am mistaken there was a mod for the original M&B that had some troop formations in it.
there is this from the SoD module

Spoiler

Formations & Overhauled Morale
#Formations and Morale are by default ON. You can turn them OFF in Reports Menu->Settings.
#Sword of Damocles tweaks morale system:
-----Biggest issue with morale feature was that when morale was broken whole army, peasants, recruits and knights alike were running away. We fixed that.
-----You should no longer experience whole armies running away after losing few troops.
-----Low leveled recruits may run but your veterans will continue fighting even in harsh conditions.
#Use keyboard shortcuts to control formations & morale:
-----Key V - Call for Reinforcements - Experience Penalty
-----Key Y - Rally Troops - Experience Penalty
-----Keys J, P, K - Formations Ranks, Stagger, Wedge
-----Key U - Undo all formations
-----Key T - Show your morale, if it goes below 200 your army might start thinking of escape.

Here is something from "The Eagles and the Wolves" mod.

Spoiler

FORMATIONS
I think it should be "k" to form wedge, "p" for line, "j" for ranks and "u" to disassemble.  I also believe there is a unique archer formation, but I'm not sure what button to press when you have archers selected.

yet another mention of formations in the mod "The Eagle & Radiant Cross"

Since folks have been able to mod formations it should not have been hard for the devs making this game to do it. Apparently the changes are not so radical if it was modded by someone that was not part fo the original team.

EnDShults, It seems you do not know just what facts apply to this game. If a Cavalry Officer is stupid enough to charge straight into a wall of spears then yes they will all die. but if an officer/leader has an ounce of brain they will know to get the spears occupied with foot soldiers and use the cavalry in from the flank or rear. So apparently you and "the next guy" have no sense of tactics at all.

Using the new feature where you can set your troops up in different groups has changed the way I play. Many times I set up my Infantry and archers on a slope. then me and my cavalry troops will move around and attack the enemy formation from the side or rear while they head for my ground troops. I even split my cavalry troops into Mounted Infantry and Mounted Archers so I can have them do seperate things instead of all charging at the same time.

 

[.:QK:.TOSH{2k7}]

I don't think formations would be so good, as it would kill the early medieval feeling.

lol no no no no no, they would have had formations then as they werent completely retarded then, formations would be a good thing

 

[.:QK:.TOSH{2k7}]

I don't think formations would be so good, as it would kill the early medieval feeling.

lol no no no no no, they would have been aboe to make simple formations  then as they werent completely retarded then, formations would be a good thing

 

[Astiryu]

Anyone ever play Age of Empires? I kind of liked their quick formation system in that. Some tabs on screen or certain buttons either would do!

 

[Karel]

Anyone ever play Age of Empires? I kind of liked their quick formation system in that. Some tabs on screen or certain buttons either would do!

Woh, Age of empire...  I didn't played it since 2004! That was quite a great game. I am trying to find my CDs, because with some friends, we wanna play by hamachi ^^

BTW, there is a lot of diferent strategies, you must find yours by finding the exact number of troops that you neeed, don't waste money, etc...

 

[Cassial]

There were mods that added formations for the original Mount and Blade. Why can't us Warbanders get some, eh?

 

[Ash nazg durbatuluk]

One interesting way to do formations would be that it's not a simple game of "I tell you to do this and you do it perfectly", but the success of the formations would depend on several factors- clearly, highly trained professional soldiers will be better at following and executing orders than a stray peasant. I propose that the success of a formation depends on your leadership skill, the size of the group you have ordered around, the training of each individual soldier in the group, how close the enemy is, and how high morale is. I think it could be integrated into overall better AI where your fellow warriors are more than just moving crash dummies that turn red when they get hit. If there is already a system for having most of these factors impact the "psychology" and battle performance of your soldiers, formations and how they work out would work very well, I think.

Maybe this is all unnecessarily complex, though.

 

[Brador]

Nice idea Ash, really complex to coding but very realist.

 

[Ash nazg durbatuluk]

I guess the main point I'm trying to get across is this: taking more factors into account in all events will make the game seem more realistic and immersive. Life is complex business. You have uncountable different elements all coming together to form the situation you experience at any given point. So the more factors you recognize and can influence in a game, the more alive it seems. I suppose that if you program with this in mind, taking more and more factors into account as you develop the game shouldn't be impossibly complicated. However, my coding experience is restricted to small applications and scripts I've written for personal use and enjoyment- I have no idea what developing a large scale project like this is like.

 

[Ricox]

I don't think formations would be so good, as it would kill the early medieval feeling.

Are you kidding me? They had formations for hundreds of years before Medieval. Ever heard of Roman empire or maybe Macedonia? *facepalm* How do you think battles were won in Medieval? By charging into the enemies like barbarians? Even barbarians had formations, thought the fighters had a reasonable distance between them which makes them look like unorganized horde while charging (which pretty much is right, but still they had formations). It's like saying Macedonian pikemen were fighting like barbarian horde (fighters having distance between eachother etc.)... Just imagine how easy it would be to flank those pikemen, you could even flank them by charging right in middle of their "formation" (not even a formation).

EDIT: *facepalm* I didn't notice this topic was made in ... like 2005 and the post I quoted was made in 2005.... Did they merge M&B suggestions into M&B Warband suggestions boards?

 

[Astiryu]

  A formation is any tactical way to place a number of troops to counter an opposing force. A single file line could be used in the right situation. The hard part is making the soldier perform the action ( in games and out ). The US Army has formations for squads to suit needs on the battlefield or in jungle,desert and urban warfare. What needs to be done is research on formations,troop types and troop positions inside formations.

  I like to use different troops for different jobs on Native my core formation is 30 Huscarls and 15 Vet Nord Archers. I substitute
Kerghits for Cavalry and kit my captains out for different situations as needed. My Captains always have a blunt weapon for prisoners. I mainly capture looters for the lack of difficulty and often do so myself if under 20 or so. I capture fortresses until my king grants me with my own and choose them according to location. I often charge enemy caravans passage toll. I do not go out of my way to attack villagers or caravans for they are in my eyes potential renters. Looters, Deserters, etc. are my main targets though I help any Villagers or Caravans regardless of faction if they are hard pressed I do my duty to my king and country, pursue outlaws and help the helpless. In battle try to be swift and decisive using terrain to my advantage and troops at my disposal to defeat as many as possible while living themselves. My core troop formation is doubled for use as a garrison
and specialized troops for sieges or travel.My captains are usually segregated into different roles according to personal strengths and outfitted with gear with a battle buddy in similar fashion. Each team is equipped with like armor and weaponry
to aid identification at long range if needed. Stats are usually brought to 15 but int is way up there. I like to work smarter than harder but keep them with a mean right hook. This is very effective.  I can often go out with just captains about 7 including myself and accomplish many things. Welcome to the 7 Samurai European Edition!

Everything else is sporadic but that is only when my villages are well maintained, and I have plenty of money.

My armor is good, my shield is strong, my horse is fast, my lance is feared, and my heart is pure. Chivalry is not dead!

 

[Urlik]

formations depend on troop type.
I'd love to see shield walls with sword and shield in the front rank and spear/polearm in the 2nd then have archers firing over their heads, even if they were the army that I am fighting against.

I think leadership and morale should be the factors to decide how well the formations hold on the battlefield.
in the series Weapons That Made Britain, Mike Loades trained complete novices off the street to form a shield wall within a couple of days. in that time they were taught to perform all the neccessery manouvers needed.

the series is on youtube and it's well worth a look.
Mike Lourdes is probably one of the best authorities on the weapons of the middle ages and what they are capable of.

 

[GhostsInTheSnow]

One interesting way to do formations would be that it's not a simple game of "I tell you to do this and you do it perfectly", but the success of the formations would depend on several factors- clearly, highly trained professional soldiers will be better at following and executing orders than a stray peasant. I propose that the success of a formation depends on your leadership skill, the size of the group you have ordered around, the training of each individual soldier in the group, how close the enemy is, and how high morale is. I think it could be integrated into overall better AI where your fellow warriors are more than just moving crash dummies that turn red when they get hit. If there is already a system for having most of these factors impact the "psychology" and battle performance of your soldiers, formations and how they work out would work very well, I think.

Maybe this is all unnecessarily complex, though.

It is complex but would be aweeeeesome.  M&B really does need formations.  Sometimes, when I see my Rhodok Sergeants running around in their blob formation, hacking and slashing and stabbing, whilst dancing around in circles with their enemy, I wonder to myself "Why weren't better formations implemented into the game in the first place?"

 

[Von Winterfeld]

I'm in the middle of testing a "formation" - that is, I have my customised Swadian knights in the first line, followed by my companions and Khergit Veteran Horsearchers in the second, followed by any foot. This is using the ability to add troop buttons at the Party screen.
Against foot or horse, this seems to work. The knights crash into the enemy line, followed by the horse archers - the double impact works a treat! Yet to test it in a major battle but it would be lovely to have Total War style battlefields and some greater degree of control.

Above all, we really need bigger battlefields. Cavalry have very little time to deploy which can be a little dull. Here's wishing I could use horse archer "stings" to pull apart enemy lines and time a knightly charge into the pursuing enemy...

 

[sharptooth]

i would like to see formations in warband other than the ones currently in the game but only if they were made useful and can give a tactical advantage. as it stands i don't believe formations give any tactical advantage in the game except stand closer and spread out which are already implemented. (ex. i use the stand closer and hold position command when i have alot of infantry vs. alot of cavalry in order to get the horses stuck and kill them easily as compared to a spread formation where the cavalry can dodge in and out of the main battle and pick off troops that separate from the group.) i don't think triangle formations would help cavalry. the only reason those tactics work in the total war series is because the squads get attack/defense bonuses or something when in particular formations. i assume that's what this idea is based on... in M&B the units are self dependant unlike the total war series which is based heavily on squad warfare. to sum up, i like the idea but i can't see it being useful beyond how it is already implemented.

 

[LtpLegend]

92 pages wow all I want to say besides Id love formations is FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY will someone please tell the AI to stop trying to flank you... its not going to work EVER it just messes up your lines and delays their inevitable death to my Swadian lances. However when I try to play foot troops and archers to spice things up the AI always runs sideways its really annoying just come straight at me.

IF YOU DO DO FORMATIONS please fix them from the M&B ones because they didnt work right. They would like run away from you in formation it was weird they moved as a solid unit and not a bunch of units it made combat very weird. It's also very hard to explain.