Winterwolf00
Sergeant Knight
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,136930.0.htmlUrlik said:
Troop Formations!
- Thread starter Lost_Brazilian
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Sergeant Knight
Winterwolf00
Sergeant Knight
The Roman TestudoBailian said:
Saxon Shield Wall
Winterwolf00
Sergeant Knight
They didn't need leg guards, their shields covered them.
re: shield formations -- we can get troops close together (closer than Native with scripted movement) and could probably force shields/spears. Unfortunately, facing can't be scripted (much less shield overlap/overhead).
re: volley -- you can get at least one by holding fire until the enemy is close -- maybe 20-30 m. I know archers will fire from behind friendly troops, but am unsure of the parameters. I'd have to test further applying ranks to archers.
re: khergit keeping distance -- Caba'drin was working on a Cantabrian Circle. When I saw it, it was to the point of the horses circling. He was going to integrate it in my formations code, but I haven't heard back...
re: volley -- you can get at least one by holding fire until the enemy is close -- maybe 20-30 m. I know archers will fire from behind friendly troops, but am unsure of the parameters. I'd have to test further applying ranks to archers.
re: khergit keeping distance -- Caba'drin was working on a Cantabrian Circle. When I saw it, it was to the point of the horses circling. He was going to integrate it in my formations code, but I haven't heard back...
CommanderMDY
Recruit
The game would be so much better with troop formations. I mean seriously, the only tactics I can find are stay right here, follow me, and run away. Those aren't very descriptive tactics, and I would love something like a shield wall slowly advancing or a triangle shaped calvary charge. That would be amazing.
colivar
Recruit
formations would indeed be very cool 
i don't ask for much, just wing formation for cavalry and squire formation for the infantry...
ow, and now i think of it, it would also be nice to be able to make a ram to destroy the gates of castles and towns.
i think these few things would mean a lot to the quality of the game.
i don't ask for much, just wing formation for cavalry and squire formation for the infantry...
ow, and now i think of it, it would also be nice to be able to make a ram to destroy the gates of castles and towns.
i think these few things would mean a lot to the quality of the game.
Spazzimus
Recruit
Okay so we're on post 1409 (something) now.
1)Does a Admin swoop in and tell us okay thats a great idea
2) or do we sign a petition kind of thing
3)or do we apply for a mod?
Would be irrelevant if all of us post its a great idea but nothing happens.
Saying this because I think this is a great idea!Many battles have been won and loss because of army management.
1)Does a Admin swoop in and tell us okay thats a great idea
2) or do we sign a petition kind of thing
3)or do we apply for a mod?
Would be irrelevant if all of us post its a great idea but nothing happens.
Saying this because I think this is a great idea!Many battles have been won and loss because of army management.
Amman d Stazia
Master Knight
Spazzimus said:Okay so we're on post 1409 (something) now.
1)Does a Admin swoop in and tell us okay thats a great idea
2) or do we sign a petition kind of thing
3)or do we apply for a mod?
Would be irrelevant if all of us post its a great idea but nothing happens.
Saying this because I think this is a great idea!Many battles have been won and loss because of army management.
there is a mod already, and that'll be all you get I think. Some ideas have been implemeted from these suggestions, but it has been years since that last happened. It seems (to me) the developers consider the game to be 'perfect' or at least close enough that it's not worth their while making improvements.
Eihger
Recruit
First off, How many of you have Lezalit as a companion? Lezalit SPECIFICALLY mentions the use of a Rhodokian Shield Wall. Well the Rhodoks charge in the same fashion the Swadians do, or even the Nords. He also mentions Swadian Cavalry formations. So first off That defeats the "Unorganized Brawl" argument against formations because obviously Calridia uses formations. But they simply don't exist.
Secondly; I have noticed the Game itself is relatively Amateur in design ( Not an insult, its why I love it!) So then the coding for formations wouldn''t be too difficult to figure out, its simply a matter of assigning a Y value to the group as well as an X limit. As well the possibility for regiments or cohorts ( The name for the blocks of troops for the non military savvy) exists within the game itself, your party order already gives the standard build for a regiment. The question is do you want to block mixed units ( Exemplus Gratia recruits in front of veterans) Which would be tricky to code, or to block out existing units at maybe a 4x3 ratio or even a 2X1. So say you have a unit of 30 men, you'll have 2 lines of 15 long, or 3 lines of 5. This actually isn't that hard to script. In fact there already is a tight and loose formation command in the game.
Third, battle sizes would mostlikely have to be increased, but scale doesn't necessarily have to. Its VERY easy to change the upper threshold for battles. So instead of having your 13 men you can have the full 30, or whatever you chose to bring out. While I wouldn't mind scale to be larger ( Grand armies rarely fight so battles rarely get over 100 v 100) that changes a few things around. Probably for the better, but still there is nothing more perfectly suited for this game than to be one man in a battle of thousands turning the tide, through being a tactical Genius or a valiant warrior. This even opens up the possibility of a new play style, a strategist instead of a warrior. Probably a less played role, but the fact remains options are good.
Fourth. If battles are to be increased in size one thing MUST happen, Battle starts must have a wider spawn area. A Great deal of CPU stress comes from the density of actions, not the number, so actually spreading out the spawning zone into the block formations not only makes the battle larger but it will reduce the crowding and lag. Its Win Win. This will cause battles to still have the line set up, but it will be in bigger blocks. Imagine the enemy setting up in a similar fashion, so instead of an unorganized mega blob that either charges you, or slowly circles you, you have the option to move troops into a formation to prevent circling, and to force fighting. The game doesn't change in theme or flow, it just opens up more options for play style.
PITFALLS
This new way of fighting battles may result in AI retardation, and scripting to deal with this may be needed, but the AI doesn't need to be sun Tzu, it just needs simple defensive, and aggressive scripts. For example: Swadians could start with Cavalry in the front and begin with an aggressive Charge, where as Rhodokians start with a tight defensive shield cluster that moves slowly, the Nords would have Very aggressive infantry in a loose formation, Vaegirs would use a defensive Archer forward start, Khergits would use very aggressive very mobile charges. and the Sarranids could start with an aggressive cavalry charge as well. This gives the Factions their own personality, and your personal faction a combined role as is mostly intended. The personalities and combat doctrines are soarly lacking in the games presentation, Rhodokians charge blindly into cavalry, swadians just charge everything at you. Nords work, but thats because a large infantry blob is more or less what they do. The fact remains that all the factions simply act the same because all battles are the same.
This is just some food for thought, though the implementation of block formations would ONLY change the game for the better.
Secondly; I have noticed the Game itself is relatively Amateur in design ( Not an insult, its why I love it!) So then the coding for formations wouldn''t be too difficult to figure out, its simply a matter of assigning a Y value to the group as well as an X limit. As well the possibility for regiments or cohorts ( The name for the blocks of troops for the non military savvy) exists within the game itself, your party order already gives the standard build for a regiment. The question is do you want to block mixed units ( Exemplus Gratia recruits in front of veterans) Which would be tricky to code, or to block out existing units at maybe a 4x3 ratio or even a 2X1. So say you have a unit of 30 men, you'll have 2 lines of 15 long, or 3 lines of 5. This actually isn't that hard to script. In fact there already is a tight and loose formation command in the game.
Third, battle sizes would mostlikely have to be increased, but scale doesn't necessarily have to. Its VERY easy to change the upper threshold for battles. So instead of having your 13 men you can have the full 30, or whatever you chose to bring out. While I wouldn't mind scale to be larger ( Grand armies rarely fight so battles rarely get over 100 v 100) that changes a few things around. Probably for the better, but still there is nothing more perfectly suited for this game than to be one man in a battle of thousands turning the tide, through being a tactical Genius or a valiant warrior. This even opens up the possibility of a new play style, a strategist instead of a warrior. Probably a less played role, but the fact remains options are good.
Fourth. If battles are to be increased in size one thing MUST happen, Battle starts must have a wider spawn area. A Great deal of CPU stress comes from the density of actions, not the number, so actually spreading out the spawning zone into the block formations not only makes the battle larger but it will reduce the crowding and lag. Its Win Win. This will cause battles to still have the line set up, but it will be in bigger blocks. Imagine the enemy setting up in a similar fashion, so instead of an unorganized mega blob that either charges you, or slowly circles you, you have the option to move troops into a formation to prevent circling, and to force fighting. The game doesn't change in theme or flow, it just opens up more options for play style.
PITFALLS
This new way of fighting battles may result in AI retardation, and scripting to deal with this may be needed, but the AI doesn't need to be sun Tzu, it just needs simple defensive, and aggressive scripts. For example: Swadians could start with Cavalry in the front and begin with an aggressive Charge, where as Rhodokians start with a tight defensive shield cluster that moves slowly, the Nords would have Very aggressive infantry in a loose formation, Vaegirs would use a defensive Archer forward start, Khergits would use very aggressive very mobile charges. and the Sarranids could start with an aggressive cavalry charge as well. This gives the Factions their own personality, and your personal faction a combined role as is mostly intended. The personalities and combat doctrines are soarly lacking in the games presentation, Rhodokians charge blindly into cavalry, swadians just charge everything at you. Nords work, but thats because a large infantry blob is more or less what they do. The fact remains that all the factions simply act the same because all battles are the same.
This is just some food for thought, though the implementation of block formations would ONLY change the game for the better.
i think you are totaly right,it would not only make the game more of a challange because you'd have to play different tactics for different factions it would also make the game more realistic. i also agrre that it would ONLY make the game better.Eihger said:
Formations will make the game better only if the AI knows how to use it, if not it will give still more advantage to the human player.
BTW some kind of tactics can be used by now, I usually move my cavalry to one flank, led the enemy bypass them and then issue a charge order to attack their rear, it is devastating against crossbow troops.
You can create a shield wall issuing the order "advance 10 paces" and then "stand closer". If you issue another" stand closer" order a double infantry line is created which is great to absorb a cavalry charge.
Also you can issue "hold the ground" to the archers in a high ground.
I know is quite limited but is more than nothing.
BTW some kind of tactics can be used by now, I usually move my cavalry to one flank, led the enemy bypass them and then issue a charge order to attack their rear, it is devastating against crossbow troops.
You can create a shield wall issuing the order "advance 10 paces" and then "stand closer". If you issue another" stand closer" order a double infantry line is created which is great to absorb a cavalry charge.
Also you can issue "hold the ground" to the archers in a high ground.
I know is quite limited but is more than nothing.
Eihger
Recruit
to put something into perspective
the date which the medieval era officially started was 1066, but 1230 fullplate was being developed ( for very wealthy nobles) There were VERY well trained armies, and well ranked troops by this point in time. In fact by 600AD the fall of the roman Empire, in bryton there was a popular formation called the Shield wall.
the date which the medieval era officially started was 1066, but 1230 fullplate was being developed ( for very wealthy nobles) There were VERY well trained armies, and well ranked troops by this point in time. In fact by 600AD the fall of the roman Empire, in bryton there was a popular formation called the Shield wall.
Winterwolf00
Sergeant Knight
I believe your refereeing to the Testudo Formation.snowflake said:
I've uploaded the last iteration version 3. It's fairly stable now. If you're not compiling your own source, it is apparently used in over 100 other mods (judging from the number of downloads), including Brytenwalda, 1257, and PoP.
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2207
I will be posting version 4 development to ye olde Multiple Formations thread. NOT guaranteed stable.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,34685.630.html
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2207
I will be posting version 4 development to ye olde Multiple Formations thread. NOT guaranteed stable.
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,34685.630.html
I realized, since I develop in Native, I could just post a compiled version for you all to enjoy till TW implements their plans for formations. Now at
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2475
Installation instructions are THERE. Enjoy.
http://www.mbrepository.com/file.php?id=2475
Installation instructions are THERE. Enjoy.