Ar - Adunakhor
Sergeant at Arms
I know I just posted in the Persian preview page but I simply can't show enough of my admiration to the quality work done here. These soldiers are just beautiful.
Merlkir said:I think the swastika is not exclusive to India - the oldest ones are neolithic and from Europe.
The appearance of the Indo-Europeans and of the Magyars in Europe are linked by the same lie. The barbaric, pastoralist, Celts, who had left
no trace of having ever smelted bronze, arrived in Hallstatt, and next day they invented iron. Similarly, the barbaric, hunter-gatherers,
Stone Age Magyars arrived in Hungary from Yugra and next day they started smelting bronze and iron!
The lie is the same in both cases; but also the truth is the same. In fact, the Celts subdued the Pannonici, who, after millennia of
metallurgy, were ready to replace bronze with iron. The Magyars also had learnt metallurgy from the Pannonici... but, the Pannonici were
their ancestors!
If you still believe in the Indo-Germanist fairy tale that assumes that Halstatt, La Tene, Troy, Mycenae, Hattusha, and the Nordic Bronze Age
were Indo-European cultures, because the elites of some of them spoke an Indo-European language... beware of reading my books, you could feel as a child feels when we tell him there's no Santa. It's only a fairy tale!
Merlkir said:If I was interested in this type of nonsense panSomething theories, I'd just ask Ancalimon about his space Turks.
Merlkir said:I'm not sure I want to read any more of that website's contents as it's quite clearly hardcore "Pannonici" nationalistic crap.
If I was interested in this type of nonsense panSomething theories, I'd just ask Ancalimon about his space Turks.
an example of this guy's madness
Merlkir said:Yeah, it's not Hungarian nationalism at all. Dream on.
You're right up there with Ancalimon, man.
Well, you irritate me with your implausible stories of Old Europe, a version of PanEuropism I have not encountered before, but which I find incredibly dull and redundant. So, sorry about that. You're irksome.Oh, and please don't say to me those condescending taunts like to dream on... I'm not your 15 yrs old friend from the school nor the chum from your closest pub. Thanks.
The Aryans left no genetic, archaeological, or cultural trace of their existence before their acculturation in Europe. The Europeans should be aware that the only legacy that they received from the Aryans is their Indo-European language and the gene that controls testosterone overproduction – linked to libido and aggressiveness. Apart from that, the Europeans are still genetically, ethnically, and culturally Old Europeans, today more than ever. The Europeans (and the West) are today leading the world toward a sustainable development; the Europeans are the Paladins of Democracy and Egalitarianism; The Europeans are the defenders of human rights and of women dignity; the Europeans are the promoters of the abolition of slavery, death penalty, and wars. All these values are in the cultural DNA of the Europeans, a legacy, which we have inherited from pre-Indo-European populations that respectfully lived in harmony with nature, that were democratic, egalitarian, matriarchal, and peace loving far before the Indo-Europeans showed up. If you too believe in these values... you may be an Indo-European speaker, but you are culturally Old European!
Europe, after 2500 years of Indo-European emperors’ rule and wars, is to-day the first and only continent that is “tyrant free” (almost)!
Merlkir said:Well, you irritate me with your implausible stories of Old Europe, a version of PanEuropism I have not encountered before, but which I find incredibly dull and redundant. So, sorry about that. You're irksome.
Here's a list of this guy's statements he'd have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt for me to even listen to more of his hateful nonsense.
Prove that Aryans (whoever he means by that, I've come across several definitions of that term) "only" gave the modern Europeans their languages and a testosterone "angry" gene. How exactly does that work? They invade the peaceful Old Europeans and become their elite, force them to speak IE languages (which somehow incredibly differentiate) and that's it? Sounds very plausible.
Europeans have everything else from the Old Europeans. Firstly he needs to prove there was this Old European thing. What was it? A nation? A race? A culture? How exactly is it defined? (his abstract doesn't offer much) What archaeological proof is there beyond a few pictures of mismatched pottery, jewels and rock carvings and paintings?
That we inherited the "paladin" values he boasts about from the mystical Old Europeans. (seriously, I can't help but laugh at the words "democratic, egalitarian, matriarchal and peace loving". There is not, nor has there ever been, a culture like that.
The truth is sadly less ideal than "the good Old Europeans and the angry mean IndoEuropeans"
I really can't help but be condescending, because just like Ancalimon you're living in a conspiracy theory. Everyone else is deluded and beleives fairy tales, only you and the selected few know the truth.
I see you love to use the word "pan" anytime on anything, but I've not yet spoken any kind of chauvinistic, offensive, exclusionist, unionist or white race superiority ideologies, so your adjudication what you advocated from the beginning is nothing more than a baseless convention what you don't know when to use and when not...
Are you saying something different than he is? I'm confused.I think you should try to refute my statements instead of his, since you have alredy called them as nationalistic nonsenses.
Not exactly the same was what the first Greek tribes did with the Pelasgians
Yes. What is not true and not implied - that this symbol was specific and exclusive to a single, massively widespread homogenic civilization. (which is what I objected to)The starting point is that if a symbol was present somewhere earlier than at the Achaians or at the Arverni tribes (for example), it's unequivocal that it does not come from the Greeks or the Celts.
Not to mention the oldest writing system of the world, from which the Greek alphabet, the Germanic, Finnish and Hungarian runes evolved.
He doesn't have to prove this "old European thing", geneticists, paleoantropologists alredy proved it. Linguists alredy showed it that the Germanic, Finnic, Celtic and Balto-Slavic languages have an earlier linguistic substrata. Or perhaps you never met with the phrase pre-Greek or pre-Roman? After all how do you imagine it? All the peoples of Europe grow from the soil around 5-7 thousand years ago, when the Proto-Indo-European language was probably born? The R1 Y-chromosomal haplogroup is a bit older, around 30 thousand years old, the R1b and the R1a itself is even older with it's 15-20 thousand years.
You are very brave to claim things like this with a shrug. Even the elder scientists refrain from such statements, you must be omniscient. Please tell me how did the egalitarian or matriarchal expressions come into existence if such a society never existed? By the way these are the similes of Marija Gimbutas (was a Lithuanian-American Professor of European Archaeology)... you are certainly better informed than she were in her discipline.
There is nothing special. There were a peace-loving agricultural community (the Carpatho-Balkanian region was continuosly inhabited through tens of thousands of years) and a pastoralist military elite who invaded Europe and (with the Celtic culture) spreaded the Indo-European languages in there, just as I showed you many historical examples about earlier and later language-shifting.
I never sad such a thing. On the contrary, you were who tried to criticise every way what I say, so from my part it seems that you are the one who think everyone else is wrong and deluded, although you have no knowledge in these disciplines.
One thing is sure, if I were you, I would not start arguing in topics which I am not familiar with...
Merlkir said:The word "pan" has nothing to do with the list you present. You posted links to an abstract of some guys' article/book where he talks of a great Old European civilization from which all Europeans are descended. That's what I called pan-europism.
Are you saying something different than he is? I'm confused.
Show me a Pelasgian person, or traits which a current living population inherited from the Pelasgians. There should be a majority of these traits, only angry genes and language should be greek.
Rest of your examples are simple invasions and occupations. It's not the same thing as claiming that a whole continent was invaded and ruled by some IE elite which had no other impact than languages and an angry gene, because they were so evil.
Cultural fusion/cohabitation simply does not work this simplisticly.
What is not true and not implied - that this symbol was specific and exclusive to a single, massively widespread homogenic civilization. (which is what I objected to)
again, the same objection as above.
It's the wonderful idealized combination of the traits I find implausible. If anyone tells me there was a culture which was "peace loving", I'll immediately distrust this person.
Now I can imagine a late neolithic society which might be fairly egalitarian (not in the ultimate sense of course), maybe even democratic. Matriarchal, weeell, that would depend on location and specific culture, but ok. But peace loving? How the hell do you know?
Especially with archaeology this old, it's a great risk to try guessing stuff like this and I find it very unprofessional if an academic makes person such statements.
Eh, no further comment.
I don't think everyone else is wrong, I think you are wrong. I started arguing on topics I am fairly familiar with, even if I'm not an expert. Because what you present is an idealistic wish, not a plausible scientific hypothesis.
I'll give you one thing - aside from calling me ignorant and rude, you're pretty polite and that's a good thing. Well done. Still annoying though.
Merlkir said:There are just as many professors and famous historians (writing them history books I've read) who would not agree with this malarky, your argument "but you're a nobody, thus you're wrong" doesn't hold up.
And still, even with your superior rhetorical skills ( ) you fail to grasp the simple nature of what I'm disagreeing with.
There is no evidence for a single unified prehistoric European civilization, from which we inherited most of our culture. This idea that a wonderfully ideal culture, homogenous all over the continent, peace loving and democratic, living in harmony with nature, was overthrown by barbaric invaders who contributed nothing but their language and an "angry" gene is simply hilarious and entirely implausible. For far too many reasons to explain.
It's an idealistic approach driven by some kind of political agenda, clearly. Why? Because cultural diffusion usually works both ways - people living in Great Britain aren't just Britons with Anglo Saxon nobility speaking English and having an angry gene. Sure, the cultural exchange isn't always entirely symmetrical, but it isn't this purposefuly unilateral as you present either.
But that's not really all that important in the big picture. I called this theory pan-Europic, because it is. It speaks of a massive unified European civilization. That's what PAN stands for.
I am simply objecting to this claim that there was clearly a single Old European civilization, from which we inherited most of our culture.
A couple of symbols looking vaguely similar doesn't prove anything if you pull them out of context. Ancalimon is doing exactly this and his conclusion is that we're all Turks. And just as you, he doesn't see any holes in his approach.
It is certainly possible to try and describe a culture's view and way of life based on burial finds. Of course. But one should not fall into the trap of idolizing and idealizing it.
You ask me for scientific data to disprove this theory of yours. It doesn't work this way I'm afraid (although I'd be glad to do that, once I'm sure of what exactly you're trying to say here). You're trying to convince us of something, the burden of proof is on you. So far you've shown us a bunch of pictures and rambled a bit, no doubt irritated by my aggressive posts.
I'm simply fed up with you pan-Something idealistic pseudo-nationalist types.