The Problem With Battle AI

[JustinTime49]

So for those stomping armies with minimal casualties despite being outnumbered 3/1, I'm sure you can see the logic in what I'm about to write.

There are 3 different AI variables in battles:

Tactical AI: Commands formations to do this and that based on the situation.
Formation AI: Commands the Individual AI to work together to form a given formation
Individual AI: The individual acts to complete whatever the formation AI tells it to do.

They are all reliant on each other, but the communication between them is abysmal.

Defending:
The Idea: The AI takes a defensive formation, shield wall of infantry in the front with archers behind. Have the infantry aggro enemy archer shots while they dish out damage themselves

The Product: The shield wall is 70% recruits, and all enemy archer shots aren't being blocked by shields so mass casualties occur, usually causing the AI to turn its defensive formation into an all-out suicidal charge.

Attacking:
The Idea: The AI makes a constant advance, archers skirmishing in front or behind ally infantry who are closing in, forming a shield wall upon reaching the enemy to fight in the most ideal situation.

The Product: Advancing archers are too busy moving to bother loosing arrows, and because of encumbrance, recruit and non-shielded units subsequently take the vanguard role, making them the first target for stationary archers in a defensive formation. Upon reaching the lines, the AI orders Shield wall, but because the advance has the infantry formation all over the map, with heavy units so far behind, the non-shielded vanguard units slow to a walk to allow more units to catch up, allowing even more archer fire to pelt their lines. Usually, by this time, a cavalry charge or even infantry charge will cause a rout.

I'm not even going to mention the defensive ring formation, because that just needs to go or be overhauled period.

Overall, the AI seems to be compatible if they face their AI counterpart, but for players, the most basic strategy allows you to steamroll army after army, numbers be damned.

 

[Pancakelord333]

IMO 1v1 combat needs to be sorted out before all else.

I know the AI can block and parry and shift itself around, as I've seen it happen, though rarely - as there are a whole bunch of other things limiting it/biasing whatever logic it's been given (skills of the AI, unit type, any special code that might be attached to different equipment types - like predictive aim with slow-ass spear thrusts etc).

The game needs a "Dojo" or just a blank room which we can load in to and test a blank AI by tuning it's stats (this would require modifying the AI's existing properties at runtime - block rate, swing speed, predictive aim of character bones etc, IDEK if that's possible, but would assume it is), giving it some basic gear, then attacking it and seeing how it does. Then going back and tuning accordingly. When you find something that cant be beaten, shave 10% off the stats and you have your elite units. Then scale them down accordingly for peasants/ lower tier units. This would need to be repeated for each melee weapon family. Then also repeated in simulations with other AIs with random gear setups, over many runs, any outliers would form a pattern.

Only then, once a basic skill curve has been established, would I even entertain the idea of tweaking larger structures. The spear-ring formation as an example doesn't work for 3 reasons (2 tied to individual AI packages) they

1. Don't turn to face oncoming horses / dont turn fast enough (ive seen spearmen slowly pivot or take too long to pick targets galloping at them, by the time they act, my polearm is cutting through their lines)
2. They are far too inaccurate with spears - though spears are pretty terrible anyway so that's a whole other topic.
3. Coding oversights with formations in general - the game doesnt sort by unit types properly (shields in front etc) and doesnt dynamically move formations, their units need a slight degree of freedom to rotate and face the enemy and "ready up" as they approach, right now they're all stock still which is...bad [but this is done in 1v1s in tournaments/practice fights, so formation AI instructions might suppress some critical individual AI instructions?].

But, making the individual AI competent, first, is a necessary step towards formations working well. You build a system up, not down.

 

[COOMER]

Well, you have Accessed Early, in case you forgot.

 

[Punchtown Hero]

I'm not even going to mention the defensive ring formation, because that just needs to go or be overhauled period.

I 100% agree with this as I played multiplayer and honestly it works wonders in that, however once you hit that single player button and try to do a circle formation it's completely useless. Once an enemy hits the edge of it all of your soldiers break formation and try to kill them which completely ruins the entire thing.

Rest of the post is also very true, I think lord tactics will be much stronger once mexxico and the devs finish with the lord recruiting that way they can actually have a real shieldwall and not a t1 meat wall

 

[JustinTime49]

I 100% agree with this as I played multiplayer and honestly it works wonders in that, however once you hit that single player button and try to do a circle formation it's completely useless. Once an enemy hits the edge of it all of your soldiers break formation and try to kill them which completely ruins the entire thing.

Rest of the post is also very true, I think lord tactics will be much stronger once mexxico and the devs finish with the lord recruiting that way they can actually have a real shieldwall and not a t1 meat wall

Unfortunately, that still won't be the case either.

I used Native in this post, but in my recent playthrough, I modded it to make lords essentially mostly use high tier units. The tactical AI really needs a run around as it still has the problem of ordering an all-out suicidal charge even on the defensive with menvavlitons in the front(empire example) and the legionnaires trickling into my solid battle line.

It also doesn't help that they don't adjust their lines relative to the player's, with half of the AI unit not charging into my dense shieldwall. Wrapping my shieldwall doesn't work either since they get pelted by arrows.

I just hope those different formations that the player can access will also be availible for the AI, allowing certain units like menavlitons to be designated in a different group with different formation AI, such as ordering a Skein and try and flank the enemy infantry.

/snip

This sounds like a fantastic idea, although I'm sure right now they are completely overhauling the behavior. At least, that's what I like to think considering how actually competent the AI was pr 1.09 when it's capability was based on its level rather than individual skills.

Spears are just tricky, despite being the most OP weapon in history. I would suggest a large knockback when hitting the shield, but right now for some reason that is apparently a perk in the polearm category, although it's very very high.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Yeah this problem is in warband mods that add formation too, the player can easily exploit and punish the AI trying to change formations. There are somethings that help like not allowing some formations if you don't have a certain amount of shield units, but I'm not sure if Bannerlord does anything like that.

The AI basically has no way to counter a large ranged army because they can't really close in without heavy losses and armored good shield troops move too slow and Cav dies.

I think we(meaning AI) need more shields, better shields, more ranged, more horse armor and to level their troops up before war. They need raise the meek or other skill to be working X number of same troop so they can just passively make better units and they need to made to go hide in castles if they're not strong enough. The AI needs to be made to make peace when it's power is below a certain threshold and the player needs agency in his faction to make peace or war.
If you want to wipe out helpless faction you should, but it should be the player choice because it makes the game enjoyable. It seems their balancing is trying to be more holistic and just cause the lords to raise better troops through some hocus pocus, but I'm very skeptical that it will ever help. I'm more for giving hard rules to NPCs that make the game function.

 

[Pt.C]

I don't know what, the ai will stop doing anything for two or three seconds after a while in melee.

 

[JustinTime49]

The AI basically has no way to counter a large ranged army because they can't really close in without heavy losses and armored good shield troops move too slow and Cav dies.

Agreed with everything but this really takes the cake.

With Warband Combat and mods such as PBoD, the cavalry would make effective flanking attempts top circle around your formation and charge your archers in the back instead of keeping flanks with infantry, only to inevitably charge into their backs when the charge order is given.

I'm afraid in BL, archers are simply the most efficient way of dealing with cav, even in CQC because of a mix of bad cav AI and unreal archer AI.

I just hope overall battles are being tweaked/overhauled.

 

[Svang]

AI will often send their cav into suicide attacks before the rest of their army can catch up, leading to mass casualties.

 

[lukri]

This is a big problem right now because for me this is totally ruin the gameplay. For example if you are part of a big army and take charge of the archers the AI commander will shout to you to skirmish from the front but the melee line is constantly rushing forward to meet the enemy. No matter that you are lacking the melee power to do it or you have range superiority they just rushing into melee all the time.

But we cannot talk about tactics because most of the fights not even last longer than 5 min. Even a 500vs500 is not taking more time than 5 minutes. If the battles this fast why we expect long fights with tactics? This is coming from the fact that AI is braindead and not really defending only when they are totally outnumbered, most of the armies units are recruits and at realistic mode even tier6 units die by 2-5 hits. I feel that this 2-5 hitting the high tier units should be solved with the units quality first, then we can talk about tactics.

 

[Speedkermit]

Unless battles are made generally slower paced, complex battle tactics are pointless. As its all over in the blink of an eye.

 

[Agroplode]

This is a big problem right now because for me this is totally ruin the gameplay. For example if you are part of a big army and take charge of the archers the AI commander will shout to you to skirmish from the front but the melee line is constantly rushing forward to meet the enemy. No matter that you are lacking the melee power to do it or you have range superiority they just rushing into melee all the time.

I think this is the biggest problem, the AI not waiting for the Archers to skirmish, before doing all out charge.

If they can just fix the infantry outrunning the archers, we might see some drastic change. Because we would lose archers, so that they would not be able to affect the melee in such a big way that they do now. And we would always need to find new soldiers, instead like today where we can have flawless victories and end up with high tier armies, really quick.

 

[Dabos37]

This is a big problem right now because for me this is totally ruin the gameplay. For example if you are part of a big army and take charge of the archers the AI commander will shout to you to skirmish from the front but the melee line is constantly rushing forward to meet the enemy. No matter that you are lacking the melee power to do it or you have range superiority they just rushing into melee all the time.

But we cannot talk about tactics because most of the fights not even last longer than 5 min. Even a 500vs500 is not taking more time than 5 minutes. If the battles this fast why we expect long fights with tactics? This is coming from the fact that AI is braindead and not really defending only when they are totally outnumbered, most of the armies units are recruits and at realistic mode even tier6 units die by 2-5 hits. I feel that this 2-5 hitting the high tier units should be solved with the units quality first, then we can talk about tactics.

Armored units dying with 2-5 hits is ok IMO (two hits if receive a player ir other elite units attacks). The current problem IMO is that units do not care at all to die, the do not try to block incoming attacks and they are too aggressive which looks totally unrealistic and not fun.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I kinda think ranged AI works because it's simple and just wants to aim and use it's ammo, while you'll see infantry doing weird stuff like lowering as raising it's shield over and over that makes me think it's thinking to hard about reacting.

 

[daxiapi777]

I kinda think ranged AI works because it's simple and just wants to aim and use it's ammo, while you'll see infantry doing weird stuff like lowering as raising it's shield over and over that makes me think it's thinking to hard about reacting.

Ranged AI is critically flawed. You can charge into a block of god know how many archers. Instead of shooting you, they will run around, and you just kill them like hunting bison.

 

[King of Limes]

Ranged AI is critically flawed. You can charge into a block of god know how many archers. Instead of shooting you, they will run around, and you just kill them like hunting bison.

Weird, cause whenever I try that I get shot off my horse.

 

[daxiapi777]

Weird, cause whenever I try that I get shot off my horse.

You have to get there first, dodge a little bit if you need. Once you get there it's like fishing in the barrel.

 

[Agroplode]

Weird, cause whenever I try that I get shot off my horse.

Yeah but you didn't grow up hunting bison? ?

Ranged AI is critically flawed. You can charge into a block of god know how many archers. Instead of shooting you, they will run around, and you just kill them like hunting bison.

And where did you grow up man, hunting bison? I thought they where sacred or protected now, if not extinct ?

But I do agree with both of you, some archers will run away or move instead of shoot me others again stand their ground and shoot. It could be that they have different AI settings. Just thinking..
Edit: Could it be that Archer AI is controlled under the Lord personality? Because irc bandit archers never run around but they shoot me..

 

[daxiapi777]

Yeah but you didn't grow up hunting bison? ?

And where did you grow up man, hunting bison? I thought they where sacred or protected now, if not extinct ?

But I do agree with both of you, some archers will run away or move instead of shoot me others again stand their ground and shoot. It could be that they have different AI settings. Just thinking..

Red Dead Redemption 2, man.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I think the archers are often try to get into some type of formation or pull back when you close in because it is very common in army battles and so much with bandits. I could also be something they did on purpose left over from multi player since everyone complained about archers turning around and shooting them in the face.