The Problem With Battle AI

[bantad87]

So for those stomping armies with minimal casualties despite being outnumbered 3/1, I'm sure you can see the logic in what I'm about to write.

There are 3 different AI variables in battles:

Tactical AI: Commands formations to do this and that based on the situation.
Formation AI: Commands the Individual AI to work together to form a given formation
Individual AI: The individual acts to complete whatever the formation AI tells it to do.

They are all reliant on each other, but the communication between them is abysmal.

Defending:
The Idea: The AI takes a defensive formation, shield wall of infantry in the front with archers behind. Have the infantry aggro enemy archer shots while they dish out damage themselves

The Product: The shield wall is 70% recruits, and all enemy archer shots aren't being blocked by shields so mass casualties occur, usually causing the AI to turn its defensive formation into an all-out suicidal charge.

Attacking:
The Idea: The AI makes a constant advance, archers skirmishing in front or behind ally infantry who are closing in, forming a shield wall upon reaching the enemy to fight in the most ideal situation.

The Product: Advancing archers are too busy moving to bother loosing arrows, and because of encumbrance, recruit and non-shielded units subsequently take the vanguard role, making them the first target for stationary archers in a defensive formation. Upon reaching the lines, the AI orders Shield wall, but because the advance has the infantry formation all over the map, with heavy units so far behind, the non-shielded vanguard units slow to a walk to allow more units to catch up, allowing even more archer fire to pelt their lines. Usually, by this time, a cavalry charge or even infantry charge will cause a rout.

I'm not even going to mention the defensive ring formation, because that just needs to go or be overhauled period.

Overall, the AI seems to be compatible if they face their AI counterpart, but for players, the most basic strategy allows you to steamroll army after army, numbers be damned.

I just give all recruits a shield and it solves all of those issues.

 

[JustinTime49]

I think the archers are often try to get into some type of formation or pull back when you close in because it is very common in army battles and so much with bandits. I could also be something they did on purpose left over from multi player since everyone complained about archers turning around and shooting them in the face.

You can try it yourself in battle, it isn't some in-depth mechanic.

It's the advance function being used by the tactical AI, where they will skirmish, but if enemies are too close, they will just prioritize pulling away, regardless of number superiority. This causes them to continue running away to reach an 100m distance from the enemy before turning around and shooting back.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

I just give all recruits a shield and it solves all of those issues.

Or maybe just no more recruits? Have them all be t2...... it's not like it would really hurt anything and might significantly help.

 

[Dabos37]

What I find more effective to destroy AI armies in this game is having good archers and decimate 50% or more of enemy army from distance. Not even cavalry is as effective and I usually get my Knights killed by recruits with lances, but archers are the units which are making the battles really easy and fast for me and rarely lose more than 2 guys in battles against armies with similar numbers.

This problem could be easily fixed by making AI armies able to use shields more effectively (maybe advance using Shield Wall) and having less recruits in their armies. Plus there are many factions without shields for T2 units.

 

[stevehoos]

The first thing I do is get my companions shields. Can't last without them. Been that way in M&B mods since time immemorial.

 

[Pejot]

So for those stomping armies with minimal casualties despite being outnumbered 3/1, I'm sure you can see the logic in what I'm about to write.

There are 3 different AI variables in battles:

Tactical AI: Commands formations to do this and that based on the situation.
Formation AI: Commands the Individual AI to work together to form a given formation
Individual AI: The individual acts to complete whatever the formation AI tells it to do.

They are all reliant on each other, but the communication between them is abysmal.

Defending:
The Idea: The AI takes a defensive formation, shield wall of infantry in the front with archers behind. Have the infantry aggro enemy archer shots while they dish out damage themselves

The Product: The shield wall is 70% recruits, and all enemy archer shots aren't being blocked by shields so mass casualties occur, usually causing the AI to turn its defensive formation into an all-out suicidal charge.

Attacking:
The Idea: The AI makes a constant advance, archers skirmishing in front or behind ally infantry who are closing in, forming a shield wall upon reaching the enemy to fight in the most ideal situation.

The Product: Advancing archers are too busy moving to bother loosing arrows, and because of encumbrance, recruit and non-shielded units subsequently take the vanguard role, making them the first target for stationary archers in a defensive formation. Upon reaching the lines, the AI orders Shield wall, but because the advance has the infantry formation all over the map, with heavy units so far behind, the non-shielded vanguard units slow to a walk to allow more units to catch up, allowing even more archer fire to pelt their lines. Usually, by this time, a cavalry charge or even infantry charge will cause a rout.

I'm not even going to mention the defensive ring formation, because that just needs to go or be overhauled period.

Overall, the AI seems to be compatible if they face their AI counterpart, but for players, the most basic strategy allows you to steamroll army after army, numbers be damned.

That part of AI advancing with recruits in front could be easily fixed by changing shielded infantry into group 6 (heavy infantry) and allow it to advance first keeping unshielded units behind.
Probably it will require adding this to AI tactical behaviour but it will fix the situation of recruits suicidal charge.
Same applies for defensive formation. Heavy infantry in front light infantry behind.

Edit:
Unfortunatelly the mechanic that splits cavalry in the begining of battle won't be enough for this cause You cannto choose units so default group for shielded infantry should be changed.

Edit2:
Acually setting default groups for different units might lead to whole different tactics fo AI and player. The army could be split into:
1. Infantry (light)
2. Ranged
3. Light cavalry
4. Horse archers
5 Skirmishers (light throwing units)
6. Heavy infantry (shielded)
7. Heavy Cavalry
8. Spearman (or other units with polearms as main skill)

In this setting Spearmen could be splitted into 2 groups and protect the flanks from cav. Heavy infantry as main force with light infantry as backup. Ranged for long distance shouting and skirmishers in front to piss of the enemy. Light cav to take on cavalry and heavy cav for charging into infantry and ranged.

 

[Lovec1990]

Guys shields will help against ranged units, but there is still a elephant in the room and that are Horse archers with them no shield will help much when they form a circle around your units. As person who fields 100 horse archers+ 22cavalry i can fight outnumbered on open field and win my best was 6 to 1 and i stil won becouse HA are so lethal when they start circling enemy formation

 

[JustinTime49]

This problem could be easily fixed by making AI armies able to use shields more effectively (maybe advance using Shield Wall) and having less recruits in their armies. Plus there are many factions without shields for T2 units.

The issue is that the formation AI doesn't communicate well with the individual AI. They DO advance in shield wall, but because encumbrance exists, heavier troops are slower so recruits and non-shielded units in general like shock inf tend to lead the charge into your archer fire.

/snip

As far as we know, I can't remember where but Armagan himself clarified that the AI will only use inf, archer, and cav/HA as formations.

But a quick fix should be prioritizing shields in the front AND having shield wall WALK instead of running. Right now they run and sometimes they walk, it's very inconsistent and causes mass casualties for the AI.

 

[Kulgrinda Košmarjus]

Don't forget, currently the AI has no target priorities.

My heavy cav are chasing peasants that are running away while getting mulled down by 10 crossbowmen who are completely ignored.

I mean for CAV you see an archer/crossbowman - you go for it. You see spearless inf - you go for it. You see enemy cav you go for it. And only then you go for people with spears.

 

[Pejot]

As far as we know, I can't remember where but Armagan himself clarified that the AI will only use inf, archer, and cav/HA as formations.

I tried to find a dev blog about it but failed. Only info was about Multiplayer classed divided into Inf/Ranged/Cav. There was also info about using one infantry type agains another infantry type.

If what You say is true i hope modders will use the potential of this.

 

[JustinTime49]

Don't forget, currently the AI has no target priorities.

My heavy cav are chasing peasants that are running away while getting mulled down by 10 crossbowmen who are completely ignored.

I mean for CAV you see an archer/crossbowman - you go for it. You see spearless inf - you go for it. You see enemy cav you go for it. And only then you go for people with spears.

The AI AFAIK will NEVER have target priorities.

The charge command has it so the AI will path to the nearest unit, no matter the type. Not to mention, right now the tactical AI dosen't bother to distinguish between inf and archers.

 

[bantad87]

Or maybe just no more recruits? Have them all be t2...... it's not like it would really hurt anything and might significantly help.

Villagers leaving their town to join up with a warband wouldn't automatically become trained soldiers.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Villagers leaving their town to join up with a warband wouldn't automatically become trained soldiers.

You don't beat a guy with a stick a couple time and have a set of armor and choice of bow n arrows or sword and shield fall out of the sky either though.

 

[MinhTien]

Coding oversights with formations in general - the game doesnt sort by unit types properly (shields in front etc) and doesnt dynamically move formations, their units need a slight degree of freedom to rotate and face the enemy and "ready up" as they approach, right now they're all stock still which is...bad [but this is done in 1v1s in tournaments/practice fights, so formation AI instructions might suppress some critical individual AI instructions?].

This is a really big flaw IMO. I cringed really hard every time seeing armored infantries with big shield standing in the third rank of a ''shield''wall while shieldless recruits take up the front position. This really needs to be a prioritized improvement. AI is also pretty lazy with their shields without explicit Shieldwall order. Many times, I have seen AI getting shot to pieces without even raising their shields or even turning around to face the attacks.

Viking Conquest, while not perfect, felt a lot better than BL in regard to infantry formation and tactic. In battle, a shieldwall would advance slowly with shield raised, and if they get flanked and attacked from behind the flank and rear ranks would turn around to protect the formation. Again, it is not perfect and can still be cheesed and baited, but it feels better. Also VC AIs do use spears as their main weapon, so when cavalry charge them they don't need to waste time switching weapon, and multipe ranks and columns can fight together at the same time.

Other than that, as many other players have said, recruits at least need a chance to have a shield. Maybe 50:50 between 1hander/short spear+crappy shield or a better 2h spear. Shield+spear+sidearm is the basic gear set for freeman militia/soldier codified in laws of many medieval kingdoms. In pre-gunpowder warfare, most soldiers who didn't use shield, either did not need shield because they were heavily armored; or they couldn't use shield because they used 2-handed weapons like long polearms or ranged weapons. Using 1-handed weapon alone with no shield and no armor makes little sense in warfare. A simple shield is a very cheap and very cost-effective way to protect yourself, and we already have a bunch of crappy looking shields, literally just several pieces of woods fasten together with a strap to hold on to. You can balance it by making recruits' shields really weak and easy to break, they just need to absorb some arrows for the recruits to not die instantly in battle. That would make battle against AI a bit more engaging without introducing cheats to AI recruitment.