SP Medieval The Battle for Sicily playable mod -- early version downloadable, help needed

[Khalid ibn Walid]

Some more pics that you might find helpful:

(1) A fortuitous map of Arab Sicily (with Arabic place names)

http://digilander.libero.it/lasiciliaeisuoire/lasiciliaaraba.JPG

Also, about your initial pic...you might want to make it, er, more Sicilian.   So here's some options.

(1) CONTEMPORARY PICS:

There ain't many contemporary Norman Sicilian pics flying around.  But check this out:

http://www.omceovv.it/storia_normanni/normanni/mostra01.htm

and see if you like any of the images. Kinda partial to the Hauteville family gathering, but there's not much "action" to choose from.

(BTW there's a good map of Norman Sicily further in the pamphlet)

(2) ROGER II PICS

Unfortunately, most Norman Sicilian around are of the era of Roger II of Sicily, a considerable time after the era you handle. The "iconic" image of Norman Sicily is, of course, the allegory of the coronation of Roger II of Sicily:

http://www.stupormundi.it/images/Rug_II.JPG

(A closer version: http://digilander.libero.it/lasiciliaeisuoire/ruggero2.jpg)

But I don't know if you ought to make use of it.  Also iconic is the coronation mantle of Roger II:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Textiles/roger.html

but this has since become part of the regalia of the Hohenstaufen Emperors.  Also a depiction of Roger II from Liber ad honorem Augusti (although that mostly deals with Henry IV's seizure of Sicily, long after your time)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Roger_II_Sicily.jpg

(4) ALTERNATIVE ICONS:

The "Trinacria" (or "Trinakria"), symbol of unknown origin (possibly phoenician) representing Sicily -- the gorgon's head with three legs (for the three-cornered island):

http://www.hulsen.net/images/0298Sicilie01.jpg

There are numerous versions of this, just google them.  It is the most "native" Sicilian symbol, not particularly associated with Normans.

A Sicilian-Norman tomb (wish I could find a better image):

http://www.ilportaledelsud.org/images/storia/tomban.jpg

EDIT: slightly better: http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art165c.gif

This is particularly evocative of this era because it is inscribed in four languages -- Hebrew at the top, Arabic at bottom, Latin on left, Greek on right -- evoking Sicily as the rightful melting pot of civilization, the confluence of the four great cultures of the Mediterranean.

(5) OLD MAPS OF SICILY

Alternatively you could use an old map of Sicily as background pic. 

The ideal would be a map of Sicily drawn by Sicilian geographer al-Idrisi, on commission to Roger II of Sicily (known as Libro de Ruggero (Khitab Rujjar/The Book of Roger) in 1154. I can find a general (not very good copy) of Idrisi's rectangular map here:

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Sicily%20&%20S%20Italy/Images/Palermo/Pal_dei_Normanni/al%20Idrisi%20map%20for%20Roger%20II%20BR.jpg

but the best I could find of Sicily detailed by Idrisi is here:

http://www.castellammareonline.com/aramis/libro/images/siciliaidr2.gif

An alternative the Tabula Peutingiriana (13th C. reproduciton of 4th C. Roman map):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Part_of_Tabula_Peutingeriana.jpg

(looking cross the Mediterranean eastwards.  Sicily is that island towards the bottom)

Also here: http://www.fh-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost03/Tabula/tab_manu.jpg

A rather nice Medieval map of a heart-shaped Sicily (from Ebstorf (1235)):

http://web.tiscali.it/danybooks/stampadue/IMG_0112.jpg

Finally, a map of Sicily from Piri Reis 1520 (quite late, but in Arabic)

http://www.capurromrc.it/mappe/!011598sicilia.jpg


(6) REFERENCE PICS:

If you're going to be making more Norman/Sicilian buildings and stuff, here's a website with some breathtaking pictures of historic Sicily (esp. churches):

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Sicily%20&%20S%20Italy/Sicily.htm

 

[Ben Hussey]

Probably none of them are exactly appropriate.   They were pointed out to me by Ben Hussey.  I think they are originally for miniatures, so I doubt you'd want to put any historical weight on that.

Is that the littlebigmen studio shields? they are bloody nice looking but I believe they are the figment of an artists imagination rather than fact. And yes they are for miniatures, but they are still damn nice.

http://www.littlebigmenstudios.co.uk/Shield%20Transfers.htm

have a look on that link, there may be some more of their shields you may like.

Also I'll add this to the mod list if ya like, what section would you like it to be under?

 

[Swordmaster]

Hardcode, the weapon he wants is a spathian sword. Don't read the dialogs very quickly.

 

[Aqtai]

So would they have Romen armor like in RTW?

No, the Eastern Romans/Byzantines would have worn spangenhelms with mail shirts and/or lamellar cuirasses.

I also have several of those Osprey books too. I've also scanned some pictures and uploaded them to photobucket already.

 

[Swordmaster]

I've already denoted it, but some pictures are acceptable. I'll post some as well as you do.

 

[Sahran]

 

[Swordmaster]

Some helmets/armors/swords etc. for Byzantine:

Byzantine Full-Size Helmets:

I'm not sure but a lamellar armor:

Byzantine Helmet:

An Arabic Sword:

Tip of a Byzantine Cavalry Spear:

http://www.paleodirect.com/images/r002b.jpg

 

[Sahran]

I believe that scimitars of that curve were not really introduced until much later, although the slightly curved shamshir saw use, and I would presume the Berbers might have had something like that.

Even so, it'll be great if we can find some straight edged swords for the arabs. It's always hard to find them in mods covering the clashing cultures of the medieval era.

 

[Swordmaster]

Yeah, I'll try to find some. Middle-easterns knew how to cut limbs, I think. (including Turks, but I must add that they were using shamshir-like swords in 50 BC. , too)

 

[nijis]

Re the Zendar holding tank -- that's not actually a bug, but I couldn't find another way of putting the trainer and arena in different cities, at least when using the unofficial editor.

Thanks for all the pics and links. Unfortunately I'm going to be on a super-slow connection for a few days, so I can't check out too many graphics, but I'll have a good look once I can plug my 'pooter into broadband again. Quite looking forward to the map. It would be good to have something more Sicilian for the frontpiece, too.

The Byzantine stuff that did show up is pretty neat. One of the Ospreys seems to hint that the bronzed lamellar was parade armor, and the iron-coloured would be what was worn in the field. Do other people have that impression?

Shield patterns like the bright round floral ones, plus a square shield appear in the various Ospreys. Osprey also has various religious expressions on shields, but I suspect that in the 11th century it would probably still be the more linear Kufic calligraphy rather than the more ornate styles. I'd be real happy to be shown to be wrong on that one, though.

Re the couched lance, this is my current plan -- create a new weapon, called the "lance (couchable)" or maybe the "lance+" with the exact same traits as the regular one, but it's a polearm -- the one polearm in the game, in fact. It represents both the weapon and the skill to use it. The polearm skill will still be hidden on the character sheet so people don't sink points into it, but usually lancing sends polearm rocketing up anyway. The lance+ will be issued to AI Norman knights and veteran Arab (and possibly Greek) cavalry, and will have a high strength requirement (13 maybe) to make sure that you're a trained warrior to use it -- and I think it would require strength to keep the point straight and also avoid getting pulled from the saddle. A high riding requirement would be better, but we can't do that. With the increased damage for spears and the speeded-up horses, the couched lance+ will do insane damage -- but I don't see it makes all that much difference if it does 150 rather than 75.

I want to keep vanilla lances to simulate less effective (but still very effective) heavy cavalry (Osprey seems to think that Carolingian cavalry didn't couch, but they still horrified the Byzantines. But then maybe everyone horrified the Byzantines).  I want to keep the horse speeds up and the damage up because the AI has a tendency to drop couching and jab around, and I think that should still be effective. I was also thinking of taking down horse maneuverability even more, so that you really have to think your couching runs through, but that might be too much. Any thoughts?

There's a lot of Osprey citations. I know they're not infallible, but at least they put it all out there hypothesis-wise and give you a place to start.

 

[Aqtai]

Turks may have been using curved sabres from the 8th century AD or thereabouts, however straight swords remained the most common type of sword in the Islamic Middle-east until the late 13th century. Sabres were NOT used in North Africa until the 16th century AD. That 'Arabic sword' is actually a rather crude replica of a Turkish kilij-style sabre. There is a lot of info on arms and armour from this period on the "Holy War" thread. Also those 1st two helmets are 3rd-4th century AD and are much too early for the time period of this mod.


Here are some pics of the real thing:

Arab/Islamic sword hilts
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/ISAS/Islamic_swords_10th-11th_C.jpg

Arab/Islamic swords:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/ISAS/Syriac_Gospel_Sword.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/ISAS/Coptic_Gospel_Sword.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/ISAS/ISAS_27_1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/ISAS/Yucel_30_ISAS.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/Khalifa_Umar_ibn_Abd-el-Aziz_Sword_1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/Negm-ed-Din_Ayyubs_Sword_ISAS_pl.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_pl_80.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/ISAS_84.jpg
http://rubens.anu.edu.au/egypt/cairo/walls_and_gates/bab_el_nasr_1087-92_no.7/


Early Arab swords were straight. Not surprising really when you remember that the Pre-Islamic Arabs' neighbors to the North and West were the Eastern Roman Empire who would have been using the 'spatha' and their neighbors to the East were the Sassanid Persians who used very long straight swords. Islamic warriors continued to use straight swords until the 11th century when the invading Seljuq Turks intorduced curved sabres to the Middle-East. Sabres had been around before of course but they were very rare. Even so the straight sword was the most common type of Islamic sword right until the late 13th century. In some regions the straight sword survived right until the early 20th century. The 'nimchas' of North Africa are often straight, and the so-called 'kaskara' of Sudan is always straight (although most 'kaskaras' use European blades). Other straight swords are the 'Takoubas' used by the Berbers of Morrocco and West Africa.

Most of my pictures are scanned from a book called "Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths" by Unsal Yucel. This is basically a catalogue of swords in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul which has a huge collection of early Islamic swords. Although the blades survive for these swords, non of the hilts do. All the existing hilts are replacements from the Mamluk and Ottoman periods. To know the appearence of early Islamic hilts you have to rely on archeological evidence and Islamic depictions of swords, such as the carved swords on the Bab-en-Nasr in Cairo.

Other books are the Osprey books, these have to be taken with a pinch of salt, they are meant for general readers and David Nicolle, while enthusiastic about his subject, sometimes makes mistakes.

Nicolle's ARMS AND ARMOUR OF THE CRUSADING ERA, 1050-1350: Islam, Eastern Europe and Asia is also useful although it only has line drawings, no photographs.

 

[nijis]

Currently, all the Islamic swords are straight swords, with the only curved blade being the Byzantine paramerion. (Osprey however has a blade that looks too much like the raptor xpack "beserker" not to throw in there. Will check out the links when I have a good connection again.

Osprey's Byzantines has a number of floral shields, both in the reconstructions and the pix of artificacts. Some of the more colorful littlebigmen Saracen designs from Khalid might work well as Byzantine.

One thing I couldn't find in the Byzantine book was a reference to Byzantine horses. I'd assume that Anatolia and Thrace would be prime places for breeding, and that Byzantine warhorses would have been bred big because of the cataphract/klibonarus tradition, but that's just a guess.

A question that just occurred to me -- would horse archery be part of an Andalusian/North African horseman's repertoire at this point, or would those be in the Seljukinfluenced regions?

Finally, does anyone know much about Patzinaks/Pecheneg armament, who I have as the Byzantine skythikon light cavalry? They're Turkic speaking, and I'm guessing that their style of warfare wouldn't be much different than Seljuk.

 

[Swordmaster]

Aqtai, Huns or Gokturks have used sabre-like swords, but not like a curved sword that I have posted.

Here are some swords of esteemed prophet Muhammed's friends.(I have took them from my telephone. I don't have a scanner in my house. Those swords are great)

The swords of the second caliph, Omar:









The third caliph, Osman's Swords:












Swords of Sahabes: (Sahabes are the first witnesses of Muslim)

 

[Aqtai]

Thanks for sharing those pictures Swordmaster. They are a bit early for the period in question, but they are a good reminder of how early Arab swords were straight. The hilts on those swords are not original BTW, they are all either Ottoman or mamluk replacements. Because hilts are usually made of organic materials like wood, horn and leather, they tend to rot away long before the blade.

 

[Swordmaster]

Maybe,but I don't think so. These swords are kept in Topkapi Palace Museum. I have a book about the treasures and Emperors' furnitures/ thrones/ armors/  sarıks(Like Crown, and as similiar as a turban) in Topkapi Museum.

 

[Aqtai]

I'm not sure what point exactly you are disagreeing with Swordmaster.

Maybe,but I don't think so. These swords are kept in Topkapi Palace Museum. I have a book about the treasures and Emperors' furnitures/ thrones/ armors/  sarıks(Like Crown, and as similiar as a turban) in Topkapi Museum.

The Suyuf al-Mubarakah ("blessed swords") in the Topkapi Museum are all attributed to the Prophet Muhammad and his companions, therefore they all date to around the 7th century AD. If this mod is set in the late 11th century AD, then it is long after those swords were used, even though the basic shape of Arab swords used in the late 11th century had not changed very much since the 7th century. The oldest curved sabre in the Topkapi collection is attributed to the Mamluk sultan Lajin and dates to around 1297 AD.


Sword of Sultan Lajin:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y110/Nephtys/Weapons/Yucel_37_ISAS.jpg

Curved sabres of this type were NOT used in the 11th century.

 

[Swordmaster]

Ok, then, but I'll try to search for more about this.

I think we need a modeler to do these.

 

[HardCode]

Hardcode, the weapon he wants is a spathian sword. Don't read the dialogs very quickly.

Ahhh, snuck it in the "click thru as fast as you can" dialogue, eh? Thanks!

 

[Don Jacobo]

i assume that you will understand that the fat man in the chainmail suit should be implemented as an thin man...


And check out the scale armour mod, he might just have something for you

 

[nijis]

Fat man? Thin man? Unfortunately I don't know how to make folks either fat or thin.

Septa Scarabae's scale is already in. It's "heavy" (metal) scale as opposed to the lighter horn scale that the character begins with.