SP Medieval The Battle for Sicily playable mod -- early version downloadable, help needed

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It looks pretty good for a beginning mod, and the time period is both unusual and intersting.

What I appreciate most is that there is really something done, not just an unrealistic announcement. I'll check it. :wink:
 
Hmm, but there are some mistakes and bugs...

In Syracuse, the slave trader is, Muaviye?

Do you know who he is?

The first caliph and leader of the Emevis, the Arabians who conquered nearly half of Spain, they were also racist if you ask me.

Or did you assign that man's name randomly?
 
There can be multiple people in history with the same name, even if one of them is famous. :smile:
 
Swordmaster said:
Hmm, but there are some mistakes and bugs...

In Syracuse, the slave trader is, Muaviye?

Do you know who he is?

The first caliph and leader of the Emevis, the Arabians who conquered nearly half of Spain, they were also racist if you ask me.

Or did you assign that man's name randomly?

How were they racist?  I've never heard of that.
 
I think "Muawiya" was a common enough name at the time. I was thinking actually of the first Umayyad caliph who fought against Ali ibn Abu Talib. I'd thought that the name had slightly sinister connotations, although that might be more among the Shia than among Sunnis. I could go for a more generically sinister name ("Yazid," maybe) but I'm not sure that it would still be in use at the time.

Everyone on the island is going to have one distinct nationality. I'd tried to balance out the baddies all round (the other slaver is Lombard) but if that gives off the wrong first impression, I'll change it.

The Berber face-wrap is also a bit sinister looking, but the Tuareg do wear their turbans that way (and it seems natural enough on horseback to keep out the dust and such) and I think it looks cool (in real life anyway, if not necessarily the game).

I do very much want to avoid even giving the misimpression of any racism, so I appreciate your having pointed that out. If you'd still like to help out I'd be very happy to have any assistance. I'll send you a PM shortly with some ideas.

[edited] -- Oops, might have misunderstood. Anyway, will need to log off for a few hours, but will try to send a PM after that. Cheers to all
 
how did you get a harbor in there? and on the map is the icon a harbor looking thing? if you would be so kind as to explain it for me? ive been trying to find out how to do this, or if you could link me to a tutorial or somthing.
 
nijis, very nice start to a mod. I liked the map a lot and the fact that you renamed all characters and wrote new dialogues. Like many said, the period and place are also not a common subject, good choice.

I saw that you renamed the horses -- if you're looking for some new horses, you're welcome to use any of these you like:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,12293.0.html
(as well as the lamellar armors if you like them, I saw that you made some of your own so they must be correct for the period)
 
Hey, great start!  Beautiful Syracuse harbor.

Couple of comments --

(1) Reintroduce couched lance.  I don't care what daft argument was used to exclude them in 1066, but at least among Arabs, couched lance had been used in the cavalry at least since the 8th C. 

(2) Great idea to shape the Saracen kite shields properly.  If you need textured Saracen round shields, let me know.  The Lombard Leagues mod has a few.

(3) Arabian stallions are not rideable into battle.  All Arab cavalries famously rode mares exclusively.  If you want a variation on horses, just introduce a plain Arabian horse (should be the fastest thing around, but not much charge power, like the courser), a Barb horse (also quite fast but more charge power, like the hunter).  For kicks I suppose you could throw in the Sanfratellano horse (native to Sicily) for the steppe ponies (color 'em darker though).  I am not keen on the French term "destrier".  The Normans rode basically the same horses as the Saracens (Barbs & their offshoots, like Calabrese & Siciliano horses). 

(4) Are you sure that Sicilian Arabs referred to Normans as "Franks"?  That sounds like Holy Land usage, but I may be wrong. 
You are right to have Christians refer to Arabs as "Saracens" as that was the common Italian usage &, besides,  papers over the sensitive distinction between Arab & Berber.

(5)  Although no longer as exalted as it once was, the Emir title is still pretty grand.  At its most loose, the "Emirs" in Sicily at this time were at Palermo, Enna, Trapani, Taormina & Syracuse.  Your other local governers should be more modestly titled, e.g. Qai'id (military governor).

(6) Fashion: I love your yishmagh and your colored robes.  I am a bit iffy about leaving the hoods on them, since hooded robes were the uniform of qadis (religious jurists).  Should you include more Saracen state officials, they (but not Emirs) should be in loose, floor-length robes with a "tiraz (intricately embroidered armband, with the name of the Emir in Arabic calligraphy). 

(7) What's that city in the sea north of Messina.  Atlantis? :grin:
 
Many thanks to all for the kind words and comments:

Spoofa -
The harbor was done by taking a flat expanse of water (actually "waterplain" from Yoshi's pirates mod) and floating it above the randomly generated map. For Syracuse I turned a couple of square keeps on their sides for the pavement, and for Palermo I lowered it down just low enough so that a few hilltops poked out (although it took me some time to generate the right map).
The icon is just the normal city icon, but the actual point is on land and the rest sticks out into the sea. I did that by accident so I'm not sure I'll be able to repeat it when I expand the map.

Chel -- I'll download your horses and lamellar, and of course credit you. Lamellar and horses are what the medieval Med is all about. Many thanks for that.

Khaled --

1) I'm inclined to leave the couched lance out, for now -- not because it wouldn't have been used, but because what's in the current M&B is overpowered. If Armagan tones it down a bit, where it doesn't quite rip through shields like they weren't there and can't be used again and again, and it also requires considerable expertise, I'd put it back in. Right now you can get almost the same effect by charging at an opponent and releasing it at the right time -- I've done 70 damage on one occasion by striking an oncoming opponent in the face, although more often I miss. The lance is still powerful, but it's tricky to use. So, the animation might not be right, but I think the effect is still realistic.

2) Tx for the kind words on Saracen shields. That would be great to get your rounded shields from the Lombard Leagues. They will of course be credited.

3) I thought I'd read a reference to the use of stallions by exceptionally good riders, but I can't place it now. Otherwise I'll implement your western Med horse breed suggestions (with Chel's horse models probably). For the destriers, I was thinking that the Normans had imported theirs from home, but it might make more sense that after two decades in-theater they'd be using local breeds.

4) I'm not sure what the Sicilian Arabs would have called Latin Christians, but if you think Franks is doubtful, I'll try to figure out a substitute. If I don't find anything specific to Sicily, I suspect the term that Andalusians used to refer to Iberian Christians would work. I'll try to find a tiraz to texture.

5) Some emirs will be downgraded to qa'ids. Taormina should be on the map, but that stretch of coastline was getting pretty crowded. Most of the towns in the interior (other than Enna and Troiana) were chosen pretty arbitrarily, and I should probably get the Arabic names.

6) The jalabiyas are just recolored robes, for now. I'd though North Africans used hoods a lot more than in the east, but I could be wrong. In addition to that, I'm not sure that they had a drawstring, either. I'll try to do a hoodless jalabiya -- except maybe to keep a qadi's robe, for those law enforcement missions. "Yishmagh" btw was supposed to be a placeholder name -- it's actually contemporary Iraqi -- but I don't know the Berber equivalent.

On the topic of Islamic offices, what would be the Constable Hareck equivalent? I was thinking of making him a qadi, as I seem to recall that they sometimes had some executive authority, but I couldn't verify that anywhere.

7) That's good old Dhorak Keep, out going for a swim.

I'm going to do a quick update, mostly to change the name of a merchant which I realized could be potentially offensive, and then start downloading.
 
Sahran, erh like they disliked who isn't an Arabian, even if he/she is Muslim and they made caliphate like Monarchy.  Like Turks, they didn't want to be Muslims in their period. When Abbasis(I don't know the English name of them) take control of Emevis; They did understand the value of the Turkish power(Military), and the caliph, gave caliphate's political side to the Turkish Sultan.

nijis, that's great. :smile:
 
nijis said:
1) I'm inclined to leave the couched lance out, for now -- not because it wouldn't have been used, but because what's in the current M&B is overpowered. If Armagan tones it down a bit, where it doesn't quite rip through shields like they weren't there and can't be used again and again, and it also requires considerable expertise, I'd put it back in. Right now you can get almost the same effect by charging at an opponent and releasing it at the right time -- I've done 70 damage on one occasion by striking an oncoming opponent in the face, although more often I miss. The lance is still powerful, but it's tricky to use. So, the animation might not be right, but I think the effect is still realistic.

It must be in.  An Arab or Norman cavalry charge without couching is just .... weird.

Heck, M&B without couching is a crippled game.

2) Tx for the kind words on Saracen shields. That would be great to get your rounded shields from the Lombard Leagues. They will of course be credited.

Let me know how to get them to you. 

I also have heraldic shields of three Norman Sicilian families - d'Hauteville, di Capua and Sanseverino -- although I doubt they used it this early.  Also surcoated white (Umayyad) & black (Abbasid) hauberks.

3) I thought I'd read a reference to the use of stallions by exceptionally good riders, but I can't place it now. Otherwise I'll implement your western Med horse breed suggestions (with Chel's horse models probably). For the destriers, I was thinking that the Normans had imported theirs from home, but it might make more sense that after two decades in-theater they'd be using local breeds.

Mm...I never heard of the use of Arabian stallions in war, geldings yes.  But mares were the thing.  Saracen knights doted on their Arabian war-mares more than their wives, dedicating poetry to them and even bringing them into the family tent. :wink:

On destriers: actually it's more like the other way around.  The destriers of Normandy were imported from the Mediterranean, from the Sicilian theater but also during their service in Byzantium.  They were mostly warmblood (Arabian, Barb derivatives), only bulked up later by crossing with local coldblood breeds.

4) I'm not sure what the Sicilian Arabs would have called Latin Christians, but if you think Franks is doubtful, I'll try to figure out a substitute. If I don't find anything specific to Sicily, I suspect the term that Andalusians used to refer to Iberian Christians would work. I'll try to find a tiraz to texture.

You can leave it at Franks for now.  I am guessing they would have used whatever Arabic word is for "Lombard", as (other than Greeks) those were the local Latin Christians they normally had to deal with.

5) Some emirs will be downgraded to qa'ids. Taormina should be on the map, but that stretch of coastline was getting pretty crowded. Most of the towns in the interior (other than Enna and Troiana) were chosen pretty arbitrarily, and I should probably get the Arabic names.

Taormina would be nice -- and perhaps should be Greek (a tip of the hat to its status as the longest-lasting Greek citadel). 

As to Arabizing names,  wouldn't bother. Most of the Arabic names are similar (e.g. Balarmuh = Palermo, Itrabnis = Trapani, etc.)  and just derivatives of the original Greek anyway (Panormus, Drepanis, etc.) and besides, if you institute town capture, then what's the point?  Only name change I'd suggest would be the Palermo port, which was itself distinctly fortified and does have a name: al-Khalisah (or "Kalsa").

6) The jalabiyas are just recolored robes, for now. I'd though North Africans used hoods a lot more than in the east, but I could be wrong. In addition to that, I'm not sure that they had a drawstring, either. I'll try to do a hoodless jalabiya -- except maybe to keep a qadi's robe, for those law enforcement missions. "Yishmagh" btw was supposed to be a placeholder name -- it's actually contemporary Iraqi -- but I don't know the Berber equivalent.

At least formal dress wouldn't have had drawstrings, although active dress could.  The neckline seems to also have been typically placket.

The qadi's "tayfasun" is hooded, but from what I can tell, other robes usually aren't -- although the following link suggets hooded robes were possibly distinctive of Berbers.

http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante/umayyad_caliphate.pdf

On the topic of Islamic offices, what would be the Constable Hareck equivalent? I was thinking of making him a qadi, as I seem to recall that they sometimes had some executive authority, but I couldn't verify that anywhere.

They often did -- but it wasn't usually a formal arrangement.  Usually when the Emir or Amin or Qai'd (or whomever the military leader was) was away, dissolute or neglectful, the qadis took over their duties by default (sort of like contemporary bishops in European towns taking over when the counts were out galavanting or lazing in their country manors).  The most famous case of this was Asad ibn al-Forat, the chief qadi of Qairouan, who single-handedly organized & led the initial Arab conquest of Sicily.

Constable Hareck could very well be a qadi -- although his speech wouldn't likely been done "on the authority" of the emir, but just by itself (i.e. "There are river pirates in the vicinity.  I don't know what the f*ck the emir is doing, but let's go get them!")

[There existed "wilayat al-faqih", towns where the jurists were the formally the rulers; this would be the equivalent of ecclesiastical states.  But I don't know if which (if any) these were in Sicily.]

If you want a formal appointee, then rais (chief of tribe/captain of army) or arif (sergeant-knight), or more civilian, amin (respected lord) or sahib (generic lord).

EDIT: Checking up with Ibn Khaldun (a wonderful source), the proper title for the constable would be "hakim".  That is Ifriqiyan usage (and thus likely the Sicilian one).

I'm going to do a quick update, mostly to change the name of a merchant which I realized could be potentially offensive, and then start downloading.

The Mu'awiya thing?  That's not offensive.  Happens to be the name of the founder of the Umayyad Caliphate, but it was a common name.  Some Shi'ites may have a problem, but that's about it.  It'd be like removing the name Edward because Scots may take offense. :wink:
 
Khaled -- many thanks for all that, and the clothing article as well. If you can email the shield models et al that would be great. I'll PM you my email, but if the files are too big I can try to figure out something else.

On couching we could probably go back and forth forever. In MB, a couched lance charge could go through a shield wall like butter (that assumes you could form a shield wall) whereas a well-disciplined shield wall could clearly see off a cavalry charge rather easily, as happened at Hastings and (I presume) at Tours. Also, I find having to manually spear your opponents to be a lot more gratifying. If Armagan lets us customize what couching does in a later edition, and my inclination would be to make it first and foremost a morale-buster, it will go back in.

The merchant in question was actually Khadija. At first I thought it would be cute to name her after a famous Arab female merchant, but then I realized that I put her in a town where they deal in ales. So Khadija is now Mathilde (and the ales are qirmiz dye, but that's just because it struck me as a more appropriate commodity for the Med). As for naming a baddie Muawiya, I think that's more an endorsement of the Shia historical viewpoint, but at any rate he's now Abu Harb, Harb being another Umayyad name and the kunya I hope has kind of a "Daddy Warbucks" connotation.

At any rate, both Khadija and Muawiya I think were common, plausible names, but I wanted to avoid giving the impression that I was even toying with modern controversies, because that ain't what the mod's about. Eleventh century offensiveness, such as the ex-housecarl in the wineshop, will still be given free rein.
 
Use Yousendit. http://www.yousendit.com/ to send the larger files. :smile:

You enter the email of the person your sending it to or your own, and then link the person the link it will provide you if you do the latter.
 
nijis said:
Khaled -- many thanks for all that, and the clothing article as well. If you can email the shield models et al that would be great. I'll PM you my email, but if the files are too big I can try to figure out something else.

I sent you a PM.

On couching we could probably go back and forth forever. In MB, a couched lance charge could go through a shield wall like butter (that assumes you could form a shield wall) whereas a well-disciplined shield wall could clearly see off a cavalry charge rather easily, as happened at Hastings and (I presume) at Tours. Also, I find having to manually spear your opponents to be a lot more gratifying. If Armagan lets us customize what couching does in a later edition, and my inclination would be to make it first and foremost a morale-buster, it will go back in.

It should go through a shield wall like butter.  That's what it was for. 

And it isn't "easily" sent off. There were other factors at play at Hastings & Poitiers (e.g. on a hill in one, against trees in the other).  You cite two exceptions out of thousands of times it worked.

But one thing is sure.  Arab/Norman Italy is where the couched lance was perfected.  If there was no couched lance in Sicily, then there was no and has never been any couched lance anywhere.

Besides, M&B without couched lance is a crippled game.  If you keep it out, your mod will be immediately modded to put it back in.  Save everybody the trouble. :smile:

The merchant in question was actually Khadija. At first I thought it would be cute to name her after a famous Arab female merchant, but then I realized that I put her in a town where they deal in ales. So Khadija is now Mathilde (and the ales are qirmiz dye, but that's just because it struck me as a more appropriate commodity for the Med). As for naming a baddie Muawiya, I think that's more an endorsement of the Shia historical viewpoint, but at any rate he's now Abu Harb, Harb being another Umayyad name and the kunya I hope has kind of a "Daddy Warbucks" connotation.

Sounds good.
 
A middle ground solution might be to institute the couching for spears and lances but having two versions. The couched one might have a less overall damage whereas the uncouchable spear has higher damage per hit?

 
Got the files -- many thanks. Those are some beautiful shields. Are there any of the Saracen ones that aren't appropriate to the period, or can I use them all? (The Norman heraldry I'd think would be a few decades down the road, alas).

Would you assume Abbasid colors? I understand that the Zirids of Sicily were breakaway Aghlabids, who I think recognized the Abbasid caliph, but would they keep the black?

Another early medieval battle in which footmen saw off charging cavalry was the decisive Abbasid-Umayyad showdown somewhere in northern Syria (Rawa? -- will check) but I agree it's easy to cite examples. Maybe the cavalry-rides-down-footmen scenario happened too many times for the chroniclers to mention. However, I don't think it was quite the uberweapon that it is in M&B. Certainly the Byzantines, who took their combined-arms theory pretty seriously, still kept a solid line of foot.

Sicily may well be the birthplace of the couch, and battle of Durazzo in particular seems to be where the Norman wall of lancers got their reputation, but the M&B system as it currently exists turns a peasant with a hunting spear on a sumpter into a killing machine that's qualitatively not much different than a top-level Norman or Arab horseman.

Even with the couching disabled, a mounted lance on a good horse is still the most powerful weapon in the mod. The lance is longer and does a lot more damage than vanilla, and significantly more than 1066 (it's slow, however, to not make it an uberweapon on foot). If you're coming on fast enough and time the start of the thrust right, the AI targets don't usually start to block on time. Think of it as couching, but where the challenge of timing the thrust (arguably unrealistic) is replaced by the challenge of keeping the point straight on a galloping horse and staying in the saddle afterward. And of course the inappropriate animation.

But -- as per Sahran's suggestion, I'll put up an alternate restored couchable lance version for those who just gotta couch, if Janus is cool with two variants of the same mod. (If someone wants to do it manually, I think all you'd need to do is go into the unofficial editor and change it back from 2H weapons back to polearms, but I'll doublecheck). The lance alone would be a polearm, keeping spears 2Hers, and it gets only to top-of-the-line Norman and Arab horsemen, and possibly the Greeks. For the player, I'd suggest honor rules whereby the player only gets to use it at riding level 4 and has to chuck it after a single skewer. But personally I'll stick with the uncouchable lance, because I quite enjoy manual lancing.
 
nijis said:
Got the files -- many thanks. Those are some beautiful shields. Are there any of the Saracen ones that aren't appropriate to the period, or can I use them all? (The Norman heraldry I'd think would be a few decades down the road, alas).

Probably none of them are exactly appropriate. :grin:  They were pointed out to me by Ben Hussey.  I think they are originally for miniatures, so I doubt you'd want to put any historical weight on that.

Would you assume Abbasid colors? I understand that the Zirids of Sicily were breakaway Aghlabids, who I think recognized the Abbasid caliph, but would they keep the black?

I don't think a fragmented Sicily at this late stage should be subject to any strict rules on colors, but you can mix them and add a few more (just recolor the surcoat with photoshop). 

My guess is that the Zirids were probably black, Khalbids probably green, anybody related to Spain would be white.  For Kharijites (puritans) and the Berbers (very  Kharijite-influenced), they would have probably worn the appropriate color of the kharijite sub-sect -- white (Ibadite), yellow (Sufrite) and blue (Azraqite).

Another early medieval battle in which footmen saw off charging cavalry was the decisive Abbasid-Umayyad showdown somewhere in northern Syria (Rawa? -- will check) but I agree it's easy to cite examples. Maybe the cavalry-rides-down-footmen scenario happened too many times for the chroniclers to mention. However, I don't think it was quite the uberweapon that it is in M&B. Certainly the Byzantines, who took their combined-arms theory pretty seriously, still kept a solid line of foot.

But it isn't the uber-weapon.  It can be countered.  Try running through a tight pack of footmen a few layers deep, and your horse is mincemeat -- along with you.  Or, if you're on foot, place yourself & your men on a hillock (can't couch) or with your back against trees/cliffs (no follow-through).  The couching horsemen coming for you will be killed off.  That is how foot-armies achieved their few victories.  They exploited ground and tactics to counter it. 

But footmen in a flat, open field, single lines, or in loose formations, were massacred.  As they are in M&B.  Blame AI stupidity.  :grin:

(But keep in mind stupidity cuts both ways -- idiotic AI knights get themselves killed a lot easier than a real knight would.  A real knight would never charge against a foot thicket or a cliff, and risk his precious horse, much less his life.  He'd pull away or short and just poke at you).

Sicily may well be the birthplace of the couch, and battle of Durazzo in particular seems to be where the Norman wall of lancers got their reputation, but the M&B system as it currently exists turns a peasant with a hunting spear on a sumpter into a killing machine that's qualitatively not much different than a top-level Norman or Arab horseman.

Perhaps.  But couching isn't too much of a skill, particularly for a simple, unspecialized lance.  It is quite a natural position.  Give a three year-old a broom and he'll couch it within seconds.  It is the horsemanship that is important.  Horsemanship  is what makes the difference between pleb & knight.  And the Arabs and Normans were superb horsemen -- born in the saddle, both of 'em.

Gamewise, the thing I'd adjust is the necessary speed before couching.  You gotta be on a faster horse if you want to turn the couched lance into a guided missile.  Or kick couching in after a certain riding skill. But I don't know how/if those bits are moddable.

Even with the couching disabled, a mounted lance on a good horse is still the most powerful weapon in the mod. The lance is longer and does a lot more damage than vanilla, and significantly more than 1066 (it's slow, however, to not make it an uberweapon on foot). If you're coming on fast enough and time the start of the thrust right, the AI targets don't usually start to block on time. Think of it as couching, but where the challenge of timing the thrust (arguably unrealistic) is replaced by the challenge of keeping the point straight on a galloping horse and staying in the saddle afterward. And of course the inappropriate animation.

Then why not just couch it?

But -- as per Sahran's suggestion, I'll put up an alternate restored couchable lance version for those who just gotta couch, if Janus is cool with two variants of the same mod. (If someone wants to do it manually, I think all you'd need to do is go into the unofficial editor and change it back from 2H weapons back to polearms, but I'll doublecheck). The lance alone would be a polearm, keeping spears 2Hers, and it gets only to top-of-the-line Norman and Arab horsemen, and possibly the Greeks. For the player, I'd suggest honor rules whereby the player only gets to use it at riding level 4 and has to chuck it after a single skewer. But personally I'll stick with the uncouchable lance, because I quite enjoy manual lancing.

A double lance sounds like a compromise.  But keep in mind lances don't break that easily.  And if they did, a squire would rush up to us with replacements mid-battle. :wink:
 
Bug Report:

1. After you do a round of training from the Syracuse trainer, you "re-enter" the town in an area you can't get out of. It looks like a tunnel, with two doors slightly open. You can't fit through. You have to Tab out and re-enter the town from the world map. This also happens in the Noto arena.

EDIT: Oh my, it appears that you "re-enter" the vanilla Zendar after a training round!

2. Hiring the Marnid replacement ... it says, "... if I gave you a weapon?" ... what weapon!?!?!?! I have the starting hatchet, the cracked club, and a pitch fork in my inventory, and I can't hire him.
 
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