Tell me

Users who are viewing this thread

You know what Lust? I'll tell you. Yes, I will.

In the next ENL I would like to see...50% instead of 100% combat gold. Round gold is fine, but having a bad start (losing the first 3 rounds on the first map for example) shouldn't mean that the enemy gets such a huge money advantage that the losing team gets the equipment disadvantage, morale disadvantage and no mercy from Lust. I have been thinking about this and I don't think combat gold fits in a tournament much.
 
Arch3r said:
You know what Lust? I'll tell you. Yes, I will.

In the next ENL I would like to see...50% instead of 100% combat gold. Round gold is fine, but having a bad start (losing the first 3 rounds on the first map for example) shouldn't mean that the enemy gets such a huge money advantage that the losing team gets the equipment disadvantage, morale disadvantage and no mercy from Lust. I have been thinking about this and I don't think combat gold fits in a tournament much.

Hmm, people are used to having 100% gold, however, it is a good suggestion, one which I could expand on;

If you have a top class team against a struggling team. There's a much greater chance the better team will just walk all over the struggling team. It doesn't help morale at all and a string of losses or poor form is one of the reasons why clans resign from the ENL. Maybe lowering it down to 50% in this kind of situation.

When you have 2 teams which are pretty much the same level, its likely to be a close match, one which you would expect the result to be 10-10, 11-9, 12-8 etc... Keep the gold at 100%. Since neither of the teams really have any sort of skill advantage over the other as a whole, so reducing the gold bonus wouldn't be necessary.

However, if a match with 2 teams that are pretty much the same standard becomes a bit 1 sided half way through, i.e; 10-0, 9-1, 8-2, maybe reducing the gold bonus to 50% might help the "being hammered" team after the first lot of 10 rounds have been completed.

Vice Versa with the top team against a struggling team.

This could actually work well with the "levels" in Division C especially. A level 1 vs a level 2, reduce the gold bonus by 25%. Then again, you could argue that the lower level team or the team on the least amount of points gets to pick their opponent in the first place...

 
Yes, the winner of a round should be rewarded with gold. But if that reward is too much, then the losers chance of winning the later rounds drops down dramatically. 50% could be a solution to that. I wouldn't mind playing with no combat bonus either. But that won't happen :razz:
 
Goker said:
Yes, the winner of a round should be rewarded with gold. But if that reward is too much, then the losers chance of winning the later rounds drops down dramatically. 50% could be a solution to that. I wouldn't mind playing with no combat bonus either. But that won't happen :razz:
Hmhm, not only does the winning team get 500 gold bonus for all those stay alive on top of the fact that they still have their equipment, all players also get even more money for their kills. This could mean that when the first round is won by Team A and they have 4 players alive, these players could get on top of our equipment of 1000, upgrade to get equipment of around 2000. For Swadian Infantry you can get a Great Helmet and Haubergeon for this amount of money, for Cavalry you can easily afford a Steppe Charge or War horse. Both equipment give a significant advantage, after just one round barely won.
 
I dont know if Archer has right... but I think that would be hard to buy some weapons and armours. Personally, I would like balanced the archers for many reasons but these changes are unpopular. Also I would like to play new maps even cycle.
 
I was thinking about this right before the first ENL cycle actually but thought it would be too much of a radical change. When the second cycle came around again, I didn't bother with it because there was already a lot going on (maps, admin mod update etc.). Anyway, wouldn't it make sense to lower the round bonus instead of combat bonus? I guess it just gets complicated when choosing which one favours the winning team most...

But gold aside, I would propose instead to change the match length to 12 rounds (3-3-3-3). There aren't many games where matches take 90-120 minutes and really, it causes all kinds of problems with scheduling, player gathering etc. If matches were 12 rounds (50-60 minutes) teams could play 2 or 3 matches a night... this would make it easier to run more tournaments synonymously. When things like the Nations Cup come around, I want the ENL to be able to keep going at the same time. At 20 rounds, this could be a little tricky.

Furthermore... if we as a community ever want to take this thing even further (LANs, tournaments etc.) then 2 hours for a match just isn't viable.

And there's another reason I think the community should make the move to 12 rounds: At 20 rounds, the best team almost always wins. I can't name a sport or a game or anything where the best team always wins, other than Warband. There are so few upsets in the Warband that it acts as a detriment to excitement factor of the league. At 12 rounds, weaker teams have a much stronger chance of coming out on top, either through smart tactical decisions... a few chance kills or perhaps a great solo effort, turning the tide of a round that turns out to be the decider. So I think as a whole, it will make Warband matches (and, by derivation, Warband leagues :smile:) more interesting.

So that's my case for 12 rounds.

On a similar theme, I think we should move to 8 players with class limits (limit being maximum of 3 of any class). Firstly on 8 players: This is for similar reasons as the move to 12 rounds. It gives weaker teams more of a chance to take a round, thus making matches more interesting and meaning individuals have to stay more focused. I think everyone knows when you're on a winning team, you can pretty much switch off at 10v10. I guess the same will be true at 8v8 to an extent but hopefully less so. The 8v8 move, in particular, comes from a desire to see the Warband competitive multilayer scene in a viable position to move forward. That's what the ENL is about anyway and there are hardly any esports that go above 6v6 (most have 5v5/4v4 then doubles and singles). I know Warband isn't like other games and that's why I'm not proposing 5v5 should become the standard (although I'm thoroughly enjoying the Nations' 5-a-side tournament) but I do think a move to 8v8 would help seat Warband in a better position to become a bigger and more popular esport. That's what I want and I think it's what most people in the scene want.

As for class limits... way back when discussions like this came up before, I didn't really agree with idea of messing with what the game has laid out. But I've been thinking and looking at successful esports, how they operate etc. and these sort of restrictions are commonplace among almost all of them. Now I think almost everyone can agree on the need for class limits below 10v10 and I know many would even argue in their favour, regardless. I proposed a maximum of 3 of any class because that seems sensible but obviously it's just an idea.

The one problem (or half problem) I can see with class limits is that some factions depend on certain classes in certain situations... although with the restrictions imposed on both sides and the fact we have a sensible system in place for side-swapping (no offence America :wink:), I think it'll work out fine even if it does shift the faction map balance. We could do with a shakeup.
 
Regarding decreasing the number of rounds, 3-3-3-3 sounds good, 2 hours its just to much most of the time, losing players because they have to eat, to go to bed, to study because its already to late would probably end.

Regarding the 8vs8, can bring more teams to actually join the ENL, I remember teams that droped out because they only had around 10 to 12 players, that would probably solve their problem.

Regarding class limitation, not in favour since it constrains the all concept of the game, altough I will reflecte more on this one.
 
I feel 10v10 is fine.

Teams should really be able to field 10 players every week, since they agreed to the rules when they applied.

Lust, it might be worth considering new teams that join to submit at least an 18 man roster in future, not just 10.

With class limits, I hate them... I won't go any further.
 
Maynd said:
Regarding the 8vs8, can bring more teams to actually join the ENL, I remember teams that droped out because they only had around 10 to 12 players, that would probably solve their problem.
To be honest... that's just a relative problem which will be ever present. Change it to 8v8 and you'll still have clans that can only bring 5 or 6 to matches. It just shifts the goal posts - there's nothing you can do about bad organisation, other than prevent badly organised teams from having a negative effect on other teams and the tournament as a whole.

Maynd said:
Regarding class limitation, not in favour since it constrains the all concept of the game, altough I will reflecte more on this one.
That was my original reasoning but looking at some of the restrictions imposed by other games... this is some pretty minor stuff. I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Taleworlds but they haven't exactly been supportive of the competitive scene or given it a lot of consideration. I think it's appropriate for us to take a few matters into our own hands.

Stuboi0 said:
I feel 10v10 is fine.

Teams should really be able to field 10 players every week, since they agreed to the rules when they applied.
Again, that's not the reason for the move... at all.

Stuboi0 said:
Lust, it might be worth considering new teams that join to submit at least an 18 man roster in future, not just 10.
This I strongly disagree with. Look at teams like FF and RNGD. Making this a rule is needless and nannying. The ENL takes teams with certain legitimate requirements and restrictions. Beyond that, it's really not my place to tell people how to run things.

Stuboi0 said:
With class limits, I hate them... I won't go any further.
Thanks for the input I guess... but that's not much of a cohesive argument.
 
captain lust said:
Stuboi0 said:
Lust, it might be worth considering new teams that join to submit at least an 18 man roster in future, not just 10.
This I strongly disagree with. Look at teams like FF and RNGD. Making this a rule is needless and nannying. The ENL takes teams with certain legitimate requirements and restrictions. Beyond that, it's really not my place to tell people how to run things.

Yes you mention RNGD and FF, but there are more teams who did submit a small roster who fail to bring 10 players. Warsong only managed 9 when we played them, Malta only managed 8 in their last match, at times sparta have fielded less than 10, RTF 8, England infact fielded 6 in 1 match and even FF only managed to collect 9 players for their match vs DR on Week 4.

The rules state 10v10, but a 10v8 is hardly acceptable and would be more of a walk over for the team with 10 players. It would be depressing for the hammered team and a bit boring for the team who keeps winning due to a numerical advantage. Battles are more fun when there are more players (to a certain extent). 10 players for each team is pretty much the optimum number for a match.

By having at least 18 players submitted on a roster for the ENL cycle, there is a far greater chance that a team is able to field 10 players, thus making it a better and more interesting game.

captain lust said:
Stuboi0 said:
With class limits, I hate them... I won't go any further.
Thanks for the input I guess... but that's not much of a cohesive argument.
Come on, you cant really talk about class limits when teams are unable to field the required number to suit the class limits.

For example, if you have a 10v8, and the restrictions were Cav:Archer:Inf = 33%:33%:33%. Immediately, not only have the team with less players already suffering a numerical disadvantage, they cannot match the same required class in at least one of the classes. The team with 8 would have to go with something like 3:2:2. Some teams when they are out numbered would rather play defensively, and not have cavalry at all and focus on something else.

Plus theres a chance that it could put one team at a huge advantage. If a team specialises in ranged, and it was an open map, they wouldn't be able to use their dominate class skills into action with only 3 or 4 ranged units to cover an entire map. The other team might be dominant in cavalry and infantry and because of the lack of fire power against them, the cav and inf can simply just charge in and kill.

Class limits really only work for smaller battles, i.e: 5v5. But with a 10v10, you have that broader range of players and a much more diverse way of deploying roles for a team and can create much more complex and interesting strategies.
 
@ 12 rounds:
Personally I don't mind  playing a full 20 round match, although I accept that people do lead real lives, and an hour long match is much easier to arrange than a 2 hours long match. Also I agree that 12 rounds would make matches more interesting and less boring in cases where both teams camp out the flags for 10 rounds.

@8v8:
8 vs 8 was pretty common a year ago, I personally find the extra 2 players don't add anything tactically the extra number simply allows more people to play. Perhaps we should try and move away from the notion of clans with 20-30 members (90+ is some cases) and try to get more teams of 10-12 people playing. IG could easily field 2 teams, and coalition teams could prove interesting. This would give everyone a lot more game time.

@Class limits:
I'm also enjoying the Nations 5 a side, which imposes strict limitations on classes. Personally I don't think tactics have at all been reduced in any way, if anything it just gives each class more importance. I would welcome the limits.

Edit:

Stuboi0 said:
even FF only managed to collect 9 players for their match vs DR on Week 4.

For the majority of that match FF had 10 players, it was only in the first few rounds they didn't. Also iirc they won.


Stuboi0 said:
For example, if you have a 10v8, and the restrictions were Cav:Archer:Inf = 33%:33%:33%. Immediately, not only have the team with less players already suffering a numerical disadvantage, they cannot match the same required class in at least one of the classes. The team with 8 would have to go with something like 3:2:2. Some teams when they are out numbered would rather play defensively, and not have cavalry at all and focus on something else.

This is why you use numerical values rather than percentages. The limits lust suggested were up to 3. Which means if a team only had 3 players turn up their entire team could legitimately be archers. A team of 6 players could operate with no cavalry (cavalry could also dismount).
 
Stuboi0 said:
The rules state 10v10, but a 10v8 is hardly acceptable and would be more of a walk over for the team with 10 players. It would be depressing for the hammered team and a bit boring for the team who keeps winning due to a numerical advantage.
The rules state a 10vs10 (or more if both teams agree). They also state that a minimum of 8 attending players is required (if the other team shows up with 10).

The WSC- and FF-matches showed that numerical disadvantage doesn't mean that you're automatically "hammered" - not that this is an argument for anything (be it for or against a number-reduction).
Stuboi0 said:
By having at least 18 players submitted on a roster for the ENL cycle, there is a far greater chance that a team is able to field 10 players, thus making it a better and more interesting game.
Any by having 50+ players on the roster the chance is even bigger. Nevertheless I'd suspect that a clan like IG (and FF, RNGD) would (are) also able to field a sufficient number of people every week - or still play decent enough despite the number-disadvantage.
Stuboi0 said:
Come on, you cant really talk about class limits when teams are unable to field the required number to suit the class limits.

For example, if you have a 10vs8, and the restrictions were Cav:Archer:Inf = 33%:33%:33%. Immediately, not only have the team with less players already suffering a numerical disadvantage, they cannot match the same required class in at least one of the classes. The team with 8 would have to go with something like 3:2:2.
Or you use absolute numbers like Flust. Then you could (for a planned 10 vs 10-match) for example use 4:4:4 or 4:4:3 (or even 5:5:5) and the problem wouldn't occur.
Stuboi0 said:
Plus theres a chance that it could put one team at a huge advantage. If a team specialises in ranged, and it was an open map, they wouldn't be able to use their dominate class skills into action with only 3 or 4 ranged units to cover an entire map. The other team might be dominant in cavalry and infantry and because of the lack of fire power against them, the cav and inf can simply just charge in and kill.
Well, maybe, who knows.
Stuboi0 said:
Class limits really only work for smaller battles, i.e: 5v5. But with a 10v10, you have that broader range of players and a much more diverse way of deploying roles for a team and can create much more complex and interesting strategies.
As all those 10vs10-battles with class-restrictions showed.

Edit: Same as crazyboy said it seems.
 
AB and LIXH played her match with class limit, with 10 player the class limit was

5-10 infantry
0-3 archer
0-1 cavalry
1 any class

that match was funny, Also it is right that class limitm you cant think many strategies, the limit class find balanced. But for me the problem it is spam archers I think that if they have 50% of arrows we would see less archers.
 
spainer said:
I dont know if Archer has right... but I think that would be hard to buy some weapons and armours. Personally, I would like balanced the archers for many reasons but these changes are unpopular. Also I would like to play new maps even cycle.
It would make it harder yes, but not impossible if you leave the round gold bonus as it was as both teams get gold from it (but the winning team more, as they keep their old gear and don't use it on buying their old gear again) but just 'nerf' the combat gold bonus.

spainer said:
AB and LIXH played her match with class limit, with 10 player the class limit was

5-10 infantry
0-3 archer
0-1 cavalry
1 any class

that match was funny, Also it is right that class limitm you cant think many strategies, the limit class find balanced. But for me the problem it is spam archers I think that if they have 50% of arrows we would see less archers.
What about crossbowmen though? I find them to be a hybrid between archers and infantry.
 
I disagree with class limit because it ends the possibility for a captain to say in some round "go all cav" or "go all inf", to surprise the enemy just that round, before he reorganizes. Archers are being too good in some situations/mapssnowy village. So they could be limited to 4. But still, besides in Snowy Village I think you can answer decently to an archer spam, by attacking with infantry smartly not in a single big mob, cav rape, and counter-archer to limit their skirmish options.

I support the idea of making gold system more fair. Maybe the surviving guys in the winning team shouldnt get the 1000 gold as they already have thjeir gear.
Only the guys who made their team win by accumulating kills could tank themselves. I dont see why you should get more gold cause you clanmates are pros.
 
Shemaforash said:
Class restrictions could completely destroy the clans who focus on a specific class, so my vote is no.

This.



I really like 10 vs. 10 and I think reduce the number of player isn't good, cauz most of the clans have 20-40 players.



Playing 12 rounds (3 per map) is okay, but I haven't got a problem with 20 rounds.



That stuff about the gold could become a good idea, in my opinion.
 
Back
Top Bottom