taleworlds, why do you force a inferior version of MP on your playerbase?

[NoCriticismAllowed]

3 easy fixes to make bannerlord MP playable
remove frustrating, limiting attack/block delay
remove terrible new class system, add warbands, it was better
add battlemode

8 long years to just to ruin what made it so great. you were supposed to perfect warbands MP with bannerlord, not destroy it

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Even if they dont budge on the class system (Which is silly. At least add a 3rd perk and its close to the old system anyway) They could still do the other 2 and people would flock back. The game ISNT hopeless. There are just a few key design decisions that people have made clear they do not like. Removing the block delay should be top dev priority. Fix that and everything else can slowly be built upon over time. So long as the basic combat (Attacking and Blocking) is hassled with an input delay, players wont like the combat. Its an exceptionally clear if, then statement.

 

[Younes]

Even if they dont budge on the class system (Which is silly. At least add a 3rd perk and its close to the old system anyway) They could still do the other 2 and people would flock back. The game ISNT hopeless. There are just a few key design decisions that people have made clear they do not like. Removing the block delay should be top dev priority. Fix that and everything else can slowly be built upon over time. So long as the basic combat (Attacking and Blocking) is hassled with an input delay, players wont like the combat. Its an exceptionally clear if, then statement.

Disagree, with such a successful modding community, native has to be top notch in terms of design.

There are several mods who are currently going to compete with native because of major design flaws (like the class system) and split the playerbase. When you have the luxury of having such a blessed modding community, the standards are very high for the base game itself. When you make very controversial design choices, even if it's just one major one, there will be a mod that will not make it an issue and people will flock to that.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

Disagree, with such a successful modding community, native has to be top notch in terms of design.

There are several mods who are currently going to compete with native because of major design flaws (like the class system) and split the playerbase. When you have the luxury of having such a blessed modding community, the standards are very high for the base game itself. When you make very controversial design choices, even if it's just one major one, there will be a mod that will not make it an issue and people will flock to that.

I completely agree 100%. Unfortunately, the reality is that we might not have an opportunity to create our own modules for a year or more. Until then the game still has a lot to gain from even some basic improvements.

 

[NoCriticismAllowed]

theres lots of ways around this all, all being said already by countless other users, use the current class sys for skirmish or whatever, use equipment for battle and siege or whichever others. the fact is when its stable and mods really come, people will probably abandon tws official sellout new dumbed down servers and play modded ones. why would they want that? also younes you just said what i was thinking and trying to say, better. why split it like that? i mean go ahead taleworld but its retarded and stubborn

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

3 easy fixes to make bannerlord MP playable
remove frustrating, limiting attack/block delay
remove terrible new class system, add warbands, it was better
add battlemode

Aside from the combat system, which is beeing worked on anyways, I don't really see a problem with the multiplayer. Not everyone dislikes the class system and I think TW is planning some kind of compromiss anyways (some dev comments were hinting on that). The devs talked about a battle mode being planned, but they were rather vague on that. If you're a pessimist, it could also be interpreted as an over engineered, "battle mode like" game mode, but lets not jump to conclusions too early here. We should wait for the MP Vol.3, which is already in the making.

8 long years to just to ruin what made it so great. you were supposed to perfect warbands MP with bannerlord, not destroy it

The game is still a mere skeleton and you are talking about it being ruined? There is still plenty of time to take care about the things you mentioned. Let's not forget this is an EA.

 

[NoCriticismAllowed]

a mere skeleton, you heard it from whiteeyedshark first folks, bannerlord is a dead skeleton

 

[Younes]

Aside from the combat system, which is beeing worked on anyways, I don't really see a problem with the multiplayer. Not everyone dislikes the class system and I think TW is planning some kind of compromiss anyways (some dev comments were hinting on that).

People do dislike the class system and there are countless polls to back it up. Even with this to back it up, there is more proof that people hate the class system then people hate the combat system. As far as i know there has never been any poll regarding combat system and if people like it. Thus claiming combat system is a big issue for the community is not really correct if there is nothing to back it up.

There are issues with the combat system but my point is that the class system is also a problem with the multiplayer. The game isn't going to be great by only fixing the combat system.

Also no, they have no compromise for us.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

I don't really see a problem with the multiplayer.

Theres like 60 people playing during peak hours. Obviously this is an extreme minority of an opinion.

 

[๖Kern]

Someone in TaleWorlds has his own dreams and visions for the game, doesn't matter if we like it or not. These visions kill multiplayer you say? And who cares? At least we got the game we always wanted to make.

 

[Younes]

Someone in TaleWorlds has his own dreams and visions for the game, doesn't matter if we like it or not. These visions kill multiplayer you say? And who cares? At least we got the game we always wanted to make.

It does matter if the vision and design are complete crap.

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

a mere skeleton, you heard it from whiteeyedshark first folks, bannerlord is a dead skeleton

A skeleton that is in the process of getting fleshed out and comes aliv

People do dislike the class system and there are countless polls to back it up. Even with this to back it up, there is more proof that people hate the class system then people hate the combat system. As far as i know there has never been any poll regarding combat system and if people like it. Thus claiming combat system is a big issue for the community is not really correct if there is nothing to back it up.

Younes, you know as well as I do, that the combat system is the biggest problem in multiplayer right now and even though there is no poll about it, it is mentioned in every thread multiple times. I don't need to give you the links, you know it anyways. The combat system is the very core of the game and the multiplayer is even just consisting of using it. Getting rid of the class system or changing it would be completely pointless if the combat doesen't even work properly. That is why Taleworlds is working on the combat system and not on the class system.

There are issues with the combat system but my point is that the class system is also a problem with the multiplayer. The game isn't going to be great by only fixing the combat system.

Yes, there are a lot of other things TW needs to take care of or needs to add to the game to make it great, but if the combat system would work as it should, you could at least properly use whats available at this point. Besides, again, all of the things that TW could improve would be pointless if the combat system isn't working correctly as its the base/core of every other thing in multiplayer.

Also no, they have no compromise for us.

I don't remember the source, but there was a dev statement that hinted to something like that (admittedly rather vague as allways).

Theres like 60 people playing during peak hours. Obviously this is an extreme minority of an opinion.

I am aware that there is a lot that could be improved in the multiplayer, but I personally would be very satisfied for now with what we have (in mp) if only the combat system would work correctly. And don't forget, the game is far from finished. Its still in EA and TW will probably take care of most things anyways (eventually), it would only be a problem if they don't. Honestly I don't even believe they will leave the class system as it is.

 

[Younes]

Younes, you know as well as I do, that the combat system is the biggest problem in multiplayer right now and even though there is no poll about it, it is mentioned in every thread multiple times. I don't need to give you the links, you know it anyways. The combat system is the very core of the game and the multiplayer is even just consisting of using it. Getting rid of the class system or changing it would be completely pointless if the combat doesen't even work properly. That is why Taleworlds is working on the combat system and not on the class system.

The combat is the main problem yes, but suggesting the class system also isn't part of the problem is straight out false. They have decided to not change the class system, even after the backslash against it. There is a majority who is against it and it has been shown though out the beta and polls conducted for it. Not the number 1 issue, but a big issue nonetheless.

Yes, there are a lot of other things TW needs to take care of or needs to add to the game to make it great, but if the combat system would work as it should, you could at least properly use whats available at this point. Besides, again, all of the things that TW could improve would be pointless if the combat system isn't working correctly as its the base/core of every other thing in multiplayer.

The combat and class system are two completely different things. The combat system has a balancing issue while the class system as a whole is a design issue. Both of those have distinctive different teams working on them generally, unless TW has some weird management. Just because combat is a priority doesn't mean they can't start drawing out a new class system from community feedback.

The combat and class system are not attached to eachother, they are two things that can be developed independently

I don't remember the source, but there was a dev statement that hinted to something like that (admittedly rather vague as allways).

The general consensus for a while was to make two class systems as a compromise, one for custom servers and one for official servers.

Taleworlds refused stating that they want the class system to be identical for all the gamemodes, which is again going to make an issue since a lot of people including me have been pushing for a separation of perks for distinctive different gamemodes. (different perks skirmish, captain, siege,..)

In my opinion taleworlds knows that if they were to make a second class system, it would outperform and be a lot better then the current one. This is to me the reason as to why they do not want to make a second one.

 

[EbdanianAdmiral]

My conspiracy theory is that many people within Taleworlds would prefer the old class system, but there are higher ups, people in positions of power who are strongly pushing their own original idea. The people who opposed the current class system didnt have the clout or authority to challenge their senior designers on the issue, so now they are forced to double down on things they do not agree with and hope that eventually they can salvage the multiplayer. I obviously have nothing to back this up, but there are certainly some comments from very early in the alpha testing that would suggest Taleworlds isnt as unanimous in their decisions as Callum would have us believe. If a dev wants to reply to this and completely shut me down that would honestly be fantastic. It would be the most transparency regarding the decision making process we have ever had.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

To be honest much of this isn't worth really arguing about at the moment - frustrations aside.

- Class system isn't going anywhere but they are making changes to it the next patch. We should see what happens with that first (I think we may be going to a three perk system but I don't know). Either way a class system that is fully operational with more balancing and options might not be everyone's first choice (or even top 10) - but I think in time it could be something people could accept begrudgingly (even Younes) if it worked as intended (and so did everything else).

Personally I have always been very neutral to the class system but I do honestly believe that done right it could work. IMPO the thing that holds it back is the limited number of perks and the balancing - not the system itself. A third slot or more options (and more distinct options) could revolutionise it. It might not be warband but (controversial) I don't think warbands system was amazing - it was customisable but very clunky whereas bannerlord is restrictive but clean and intuitive. Neither is perfect - however something down the middle *might* be both smooth & customisable.... but we will see.

- Battle mode; we know a one-life mode is in the works. Yes it might be a little different but it won't be much changed (probably just use the capture points system rather then the 'take hold of the field' flag from warband. Personally I think this is fine - it's coming eventually so again no point arguing about it until it comes.

- Combat Parameters; are being reworked. We know block delay is top of the list to be adjusted - we will have to wait and see. AVRC seems confident and they are fully aware of all our threads and comments regarding it. Again - no point arguing until we know whats coming.

In retrospect as it currently stands all our major issues with the game are being worked on right now. We can fight about if we think TW can deliver... but largely speaking this is a bit of a lame-duck period. Sounds like everything is going to change soon anyway (one way or another) - so lets see how it goes.

FYI - Technically this breaches my "Don't reply on threads you don't like policy" but I actually think the discussion here has been good!

 

[Younes]

They always say something is changing for the class system, and it ends up just being a few perks changing. We don't need a few balance changes, we need a different design

 

[AxiosXiphos]

They always say something is changing for the class system, and it ends up just being a few perks changing. We don't need a few balance changes, we need a different design

I'll save us both the effort here.

I'll say well what about this and this changed; would you like it then?

You say no you won't because of this and this reason.

I say is there anything that could make you like it?

You say no it's too important to the game.

I say do you see a future where you could like it or ignore it?

You say you could see yourself playing the game if everything else improved but overall the game would be significantly weaker because of it.

Then we have multiple options here;

Option A - Discussion sort of just tails off with nothing really achieved.

Option B - Someone else says something I took offence too (Which will probably be Canton or DainMargot) and I start a flame war with them for 3 pages before I leave in a strop.

Think I have covered this off pretty well

 

[Younes]

I'll save us both the effort here.

I'll say well what about this and this changed; would you like it then?

You say no you won't because of this and this reason.

I say is there anything that could make you like it?

You say no it's too important to the game.

I say do you see a future where you could like it or ignore it?

You say you could see yourself playing the game if everything else improved but overall the game would be significantly weaker because of it.

Then we have multiple options here;

Option A - Discussion sort of just tails off with nothing really achieved.

Option B - Someone else says something I took offence too (Which will probably be Canton or DainMargot) and I start a flame war with them for 3 pages before I leave in a strop.

Think I have covered this off pretty well

The problem with this is in your first reply, where you say this and this will be changed. You are going from the assumption they will change anything you suggest. I've seen countless suggestion during beta that would make the current class system so much better, but they were never implemented.

There is no solution or compromise here, taleworlds or whoever is designing the class system doesn't want to admit the system is limiting and barren for gamemodes like deathmatch, siege or teamdeathmatch.

Also you say discussions like this achieve nothing, this is exactly the ****ing issue you're not seeing. Explain to me what this has achieved:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/premade-classes-discussion.387018/

Exactly, its has achieved NOTHING.
ZERO of the suggestions put forth in that thread to alter the class system to make it more interesting have been taken into account.
Taleworlds is giving the illusion of feedback by making threads like that, but in reality they did NOTHING with it.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

The problem with this is in your first reply, where you say this and this will be changed. You are going from the assumption they will change anything you suggest. I've seen countless suggestion during beta that would make the current class system so much better, but they were never implemented.

There is no solution or compromise here, taleworlds or whoever is designing the class system doesn't want to admit the system is limiting and barren for gamemodes like deathmatch, siege or teamdeathmatch.

Also you say discussions like this achieve nothing, this is exactly the ****ing issue you're not seeing. Explain to me what this has achieved:

https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?threads/premade-classes-discussion.387018/

Exactly, its has achieved NOTHING.
ZERO of the suggestions put forth in that thread to alter the class system to make it more interesting have been taken into account.
Taleworlds is giving the illusion of feedback by making threads like that, but in reality they did NOTHING with it.

I don't disagree - however I feel like they are holding back on a large number of MP changes for one patch. My reasoning for this is we know Vlandia cosmetic changes were being worked on for MP at the end of the beta - yet nothing so far has been added. Now that was months ago - you could say "Well TW just aren't doing anything with it" But I am not so sure. Several dev's mentioned it and took ideas for the new Vlandian design. There is MP stuff going on under the hood which just isn't being pushed out.

I'll go out on a limb here. If v1.5 (or whatever version number the big MP patch is coming in) does not make significant changes (not final but significant) to the MP then I will agree with you.

In a way this might be very cunning. Take the heat for a few months - build a good groundwork for MP then release it as basically MP 2.0 with a big show. But... we will see. Maybe I'm just being optimistic.

 

[Younes]

I don't disagree - however I feel like they are holding back on a large number of MP changes for one patch. My reasoning for this is we know Vlandia cosmetic changes were being worked on for MP at the end of the beta - yet nothing so far has been added.

I'll go out on a limb here. If v1.5 (or whatever version number the big MP patch is coming in) does not make significant changes (not final but significant) to the MP then I will agree with you.

Cosmetics will not make any significant changes to the class system as a whole if this is what you are expecting.

When they decided to go away from the warband class system and stick with this monstrosity, they took with it the localized damage system and choice with it.

50 different skins of a hammer are not going to justify removing 5 other weapons that have a completely different looks, length, damage,..

I will put it simple, what sounds better to you:

1. 5 weapons with 20 distinctive different skins that change no stats
2. 20 distinctive different weapons that all have their stats, looks and playstyles.


Hell, they have AN ADVANCED CRAFTING SYSTEM, they could make 100's of distinctive different weapons
In Armagan own words:

We could have used an equipment selection system for multiplayer and devise a monetization system for it quite easily.

(This was referring to skins)


Tell me what exactly is holding them back except being stubborn because they have a major problem with not being able to admit the system isn't good.