Suicide as redemption

[MountainBlade]

So I'm watching the (excellent) Rome series and I just saw the part where Scipio and Cato commit suicide and I wonder how often people used to commit suicide for failure. The only cultures that I can think of doing this of the top of my head are the Romans and the Japanese. Besides that I can't think of anyone else except for the temple in Jerusalem when it fell but I'm sure there must be many more. Any other cultures where they had the same practice? And what was the attitude among the 'barbarian' Europeans to suicide before Christianity became important?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Merlkir]

Before it became a mortal sin, some jews did it. I recall Saul killed himself after his bodyguard refused to do it after the lost battle of mt.Gilboa.

 

[Mage246]

There's no such thing as "mortal sin" in Judaism. "Mortal sins" only exist in Christian theology, as they are directly linked to a belief in eternal damnation. As for Jewish views on suicide, it's complicated. A more in-depth explanation: http://www.myjewishlearning.com/lifecycle/Death/Issues_in_Death/Suicide.htm

 

[GraaEminense]

Suicide to avoid facing disgrace, and to restore some honour by taking the consequenses of failure, I'd think was/is rather common in prestige-oriented and militaristic societies.

Cleopathra and Marcus Antonius.
From WW2, Erwin Rommel and Josef Terboven immediately spring to mind, as does of course Adolf himself.
Black Tuesday 1929 saw a swathe of businessmen jumping off buildings, perhaps at least partially a result of the same mindset, as are the suicides by students failing exams reasonably common in some societies.

Though, of course, the psychology of suicide is complex there seems to be a link between the prestige-focus of a society and the suicide rate.

I don't know of any records about suicide from pre-Christian barbaric Europe. From the above it would seem possible that it was rather common, but it could just as easily be seen as the coward's escape. The only Viking example I can remember is Egil Skallagrimsson, who allegedly impaled himself on a spear to avoid dying from sickness (wanting to go to Valhalla, obviously).

 

[Kissaki]

Terboven's motive is a classic one, although the method was somewhat unorthodox. A textbook example of military suicide in the European tradition would be more in the direction of KzS Hans Langsdorff, commander of the Admiral Graf Spee. He did it both as a demonstration of German resolve, an atonement for losing the ship and as a symbolic gesture of going down with the ship.

Military suicides aside, there is also something of a tradition in Western culture for taking one's life because of spurned love. This was a particularly popular motif in romantic literature of the 19th century, and indeed Goethe's Sorrows of Young Werther inspired a torrent of suicides across Europe.

 

[Archonsod]

"Doing the decent thing" was a stable centre of British culture up until a century or so ago.

 

[Herewulf]

I have a feeling that suicide in Nordic countries was considered acceptable for older people who were too aged to fight.  I distinctly remember a story of one diseased man (the name escapes me) who hung himself from a tree, and was taken to Valhalla for his bravery.

Other than that, I don't know much about it.  I would assume it would be quite acceptable given proper circumstances.

Also, Archonsod, I'm sure you've been asked this before, but, for my piece of mind, you are aware that Cthulhu is not an Illithid, correct?

 

[MountainBlade]

How did I forget about WWII Germany? 
Thanks for the answers everyone.

Military suicides aside, there is also something of a tradition in Western culture for taking one's life because of spurned love. This was a particularly popular motif in romantic literature of the 19th century, and indeed Goethe's Sorrows of Young Werther inspired a torrent of suicides across Europe.

That's mostly out of grief I think, unless rejection was considered a loss of face?

 

[Archonsod]

Also, Archonsod, I'm sure you've been asked this before, but, for my piece of mind, you are aware that Cthulhu is not an Illithid, correct?

The illithids are starspawn.


Seriously, don't let that whole "future race travels back into the past" crap fool you, that's just what they want you to think.

 

[Kvedulf]

As to pre-Christian Europe, I remember reading in a paper a few years ago that there is evidence that the chiefs and nobles of the Celts (the ancient Gallic ones, not the younger Gaelic ones) would commit ritual suicide if defeated in battle in order to wipe away their shame.

In addition there was the Gallic military order (for want of a better name), the Solduri, who fought in honour bound pairs.  The two men were a combination of comrades-in-arms, lovers and brothers.  If one died in battle and the other lived, after the battle the survivor would commit suicide.

Can't recall any acts of suicide to redeem oneself in early Germanic culture though.

 

[ASPNX]

The spartans also...

 

[radicalhit]

think the chinese did it. watched it in a documentary that the general protecting Beijing commited suicide when the mongols took it 

 

[Æon]

When the Romans were invading the Middle East most people of this one particular region fled to a hilltop fortress known as Masada. All the people who fled to that fortress were Jews. After a failed attempt to breach the walls the Romans continued to construct and earthen ramp. When their end was near the Jews decided that death was better than life as slaves so they drew lots to kill each other (since they strongly were against suicide). The last man was the only one to take his own life.

A picture of Masada.

 

[Balinux]

When the Romans were invading the Middle East most people of this one particular region fled to a hilltop fortress known as Masada. All the people who fled to that fortress were Jews. After a failed attempt to breach the walls the Romans continued to construct and earthen ramp. When their end was near the Jews decided that death was better than life as slaves so they drew lots to kill each other (since they strongly were against suicide). The last man was the only one to take his own life.

The Jewish fighters decided to kill everybody and themselves. It wasn't complete free act for most peasants there. There were a few who escaped the massacre by hidding in a big empty water container.

What an idiot. Why kill himself, if he believed suicide would deny him access to paradise, when he could just charge the Romans head on and make them kill him?

Because their women and children couldn't do that and some of the fighters could very well be captured alive to be sold into slavery or paraded around as a trophy. It was a dead end for them.

 

[Orj]

Remember that the story of Matzada was recorded by a Roman historian, so it may not be completely accurate.

What an idiot. Why kill himself, if he believed suicide would deny him access to paradise, when he could just charge the Romans head on and make them kill him?

He didn't believe that, and the Romans were awfully fond of taking living trophies. The Jewish rebels killed each other partly to spite the Romans.

The Jewish fighters decided to kill everybody and themselves. It wasn't complete free act for most peasants there. There were a few who escaped the massacre by hidding in a big empty water container.

Yeah, two women and five children hid in a cistern and survived.


Just to expand a bit on Folthrik's picture of Matzada, there is a thin, winding path called the Snake Path on the far side of the plateau, which is how the rebels got into the fortress in the first place. The Romans couldn't use it to attack, because it was so easy to defend. A few archers could hold it. Even without archers, it would have been suicide to try to climb it. Even today, when the path has been widened and smoothed considerably, with stairs added at points, you have to climb it before dawn, and never in the summer.

 

[Kissaki]

What an idiot. Why kill himself, if he believed suicide would deny him access to paradise, when he could just charge the Romans head on and make them kill him?

The "suicide is a mortal sin and you'll go to hell for it forever and ever" notion is strictly Catholic. And even then, as history has shown, not strictly universal even amongst Catholics.

 

[Mage246]

Even today, when the path has been widened and smoothed considerably, with stairs added at points, you have to climb it before dawn, and never in the summer.

Erm I'm pretty sure the group I was with used that path, in the summer and at mid-day. It was pretty hellishly hot, but doable.

 

[Kvedulf]

Remember that the story of Matzada was recorded by a Roman historian, so it may not be completely accurate.

I was under the impression that most of the info on the Jewish Revolt came from Josephus.  And Josephus is most definitely not a Roman writer.  He was a Jew and at one stage was one of the leaders of the revolt.  He did write with an obviously pro-Roman and pro-Flavian bias but much of his information is firsthad knowledge.

 

[Archonsod]

He's also been fairly heavily edited by later writers.

 

[Kvedulf]

Fair enough.  I didn't know that.