SP - General Sprinkling the strategy: Advanced tactics with radial menu

[Marajah]

What the problem with radial menu tho, just curious.

Keyboard shortcuts are undoubtedly faster when we want to issue lots of commands. I suppose that's personal and debatable, but I think when you have to use BOTH mouse and keyboard to issue commands in real time games, it gets clumsy...

 

[ZavodilaSauklus]

Then wouldn't it be better to add 2 more groups to the panel? I don't know, I believe that with the actual option ingame of Ctrl+ group selection (1/1+2+4) you can achieve interesting things without so many subgroups in between.
As you say 32, it's too much... too complex even for me.



As you say, it would be changing the soul of the game by moving it dangerously to a totalwaresque territory (talking about the pure Native). The only tactical pause I consider is at the beginning of the battle through a PBOD system. There is a mod that carries out what you are currently talking about (link)

No one will use 32 groups, 10-12 will be enough. The meaning of thread is to facilitate the management of a large number of formations, remove one of the hands and reach for the 8 key is not convenient when every second is valuable on the battlefield.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

No one will use 32 groups, 10-12 will be enough. The meaning of thread is to facilitate the management of a large number of formations, remove one of the hands and reach for the 8 key is not convenient when every second is valuable on the battlefield.

Certainly the proposal would extend the tactical possibilities, I have no doubt of that. Basically a groupiing ala RTS style system + proper sorting on the party panel. We could use LCtrl+ num for the groups and LShift+num for the subgroups; four subgroups for the eight groups.

Of course I would love to try something like this and emulate the Roman maniple army formation Triplex Acies in action, however in practice it could get complicated. I say this because this system should eventually be able to be executed by the AI in the same way. I don't doubt in the player's skills, however I doubt that the current AI could eventually carry out tactics that "surprise" the player in this way.

In addition, I would like to tell you that anything that improves the tactical aspect of the game and expands the possibilities of the game, is always welcome.

Edit: We must not forget the "follow me" command with relative position:

For the sake of good vibes, proactivity, feedback and constructive criticism @azakhi @MArdA TaleWorlds @Duh_TaleWorlds

The OP's shared mod may be too complex for a more arcade-oriented audience, as it requires many key combinations to be used correctly. However, there is another mod that is a little friendlier and that has the function of follow me with relative positioning (Save Battle Formation aka Troops Follow In Formation). This other one, by pressing a toggle on/off key (K) allows to "anchor" the different formation to the player's relative position. This works great if you're going straight ahead; however if you're trying to spin in a block it doesn't work as well.

I am not an expert in programming, but I can see a very promising system in Bannerlord if you use the existing relative positioning of Viking Conquest (and those mods).

Imagining this concept on Bannerlord:

The examples are with zenithal view for better understanding, however its application would be at ground level as normally the orders are given in the game.

In example #1 we can see that I have arranged 5 divisions (D) of infantry troops manually around my avatar (center). To each one of them I have placed them, first selecting them by pressing key 1-2-..etc (D1/D2/...etc) + F1 giving it a shape to it's single formation. As in the mod, there would also be a key here that would do the same function; let's keep pressing K. After pressing K, the troops are already anchored to my relative position. If I advance, the troops will advance with me, if I stop; they will return to the initial relative position.

Here we have an interesting mechanic, let's go with another one.

Even in example #1 and keeping that "anchor" function still working, I am interested in having all my divisions rotate in a single block considering my relative position. Well, then I select them all by pressing the 6 key and I get ready to turn. Pressing F1 will show me the flags with which I could position the block in formation if I didn't have the anchor function (k key) in effect; but this time I only want to rotate. Then, F1 + hold RMB (plausible for practicality) would allow us to turn in block all the units to a direction marked by the user and subordinated to the relative position of this one. Similar to the face direction function but with a whole group of divisions.

Another interesting mechanic to add up, let's go with another one.

In example #2 I want to use the current game' s face enemy or face direction function but with the relative position concept activated. Then with anchor mode activated (k) I want only the troops I want to rotate from my block in formation (D2-D3-D4-D5) keeping D1 at the front unchanged. I'll give the orders, press key 2 (select D2) + F1+F2 and follow the same procedure for the rest. The divisions have turned in the direction I consider appropriate.

Another interesting mechanism to add up.

#1	#2

If this (or something similar) could be done, there would be a requirement for AI; no bot will leave the formation, never. As in VC, the bot will remain orderly in its position within the formation in a disciplined way. This mechanic could become a basic command panel at ground level and would be enhanced by the PBOD system which is expected to offer the "One step ahead" perk (Allow you to place your troops before all battles) with an aerial view.

I think that under the simplicity that Bannerlord offers nowadays hides a complex system that if it is reached can be turned into gold. ?

 

[Memoefe]

Keyboard shortcuts are undoubtedly faster when we want to issue lots of commands. I suppose that's personal and debatable, but I think when you have to use BOTH mouse and keyboard to issue commands in real time games, it gets clumsy...

I agree shortcuts are fast(tho radial menu isn't too slow imo) but they are not that easy to learn. Most begginers constantly look on their keyboard to find where f5 f6 is because it isn't used as frequently as other buttons. Another problem with shortcuts is you can't use command that are f6 or above confortably. With radial menu you can have so much more commands. Also It can be both radial and have shortcuts.

I guess best devs ca do is trying it and publish a version if it works

 

[Tercero]

You can always keep shortcuts in the radial menu as well though

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I'd like you to watch this mod Combat and Skills Rebalance videos:

Unfortunately the mod doesn't seem to work at the moment (game crashing); however I find this feature very interesting where the horses avoid frontally charging a well-positioned static spear/pike formation. This combined with the bracing spears feature would be pretty interesting in my opinion.

What do you think about it?

 

[ZavodilaSauklus]

Certainly the proposal would extend the tactical possibilities, I have no doubt of that. Basically a groupiing ala RTS style system + proper sorting on the party panel. We could use LCtrl+ num for the groups and LShift+num for the subgroups; four subgroups for the eight groups.

Of course I would love to try something like this and emulate the Roman maniple army formation Triplex Acies in action, however in practice it could get complicated. I say this because this system should eventually be able to be executed by the AI in the same way. I don't doubt in the player's skills, however I doubt that the current AI could eventually carry out tactics that "surprise" the player in this way.

In addition, I would like to tell you that anything that improves the tactical aspect of the game and expands the possibilities of the game, is always welcome.

Edit: We must not forget the "follow me" command with relative position:

Now I fully understand your position. At first it seemed to me that you were against my proposal.

 

[XDaron]

the choice of putting this commands in a new ''advanced orders'' tab is really important in my opinion, as players that dont like the strategy aspect of the game can just ignore it and don't get bombarded by 30 new commands on their screen, also the idea of putting these advanced commands on a radial-pie menu is much more appropriate, as these are commands that wouldn't be used as often by new players and memorizing their hotkeys would be too annoying for them
other than changing the name of the command

Engage to something like

March this post is perfecto and I couldn't even imagine putting so much effort into posts

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Now I fully understand your position. At first it seemed to me that you were against my proposal.

Not at all against, small discrepancies perhaps. As I have said on previous occasions, in my opinion anything that broadens the user's playable experience is welcome.

the choice of putting this commands in a new ''advanced orders'' tab is really important in my opinion, as players that dont like the strategy aspect of the game can just ignore it and don't get bombarded by 30 new commands on their screen, also the idea of putting these advanced commands on a radial-pie menu is much more appropriate, as these are commands that wouldn't be used as often by new players and memorizing their hotkeys would be too annoying for them
other than changing the name of the command

Engage to something like

March this post is perfecto and I couldn't even imagine putting so much effort into posts

That's right. Whoever wants a more "complex"----> commands keys and tactics in the radial menu. Whoever wants and "gO bErSeRkEr" will always have F1+F3.

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

All your command suggestions just mace so much sense Terco, I highly support them!

 

[Morbo513]

I agree that BL is in desparate need of more unit commands, but I hate hate hate! radial menus. Regardless, all the ones suggested in OP would be great.
It also needs more formation commands imo - For archers, the existing ones are particularly inefficient - either they're spread too thin or they're clustered so close they block one anothers' line of fire. The ability for units to crouch while firing ranged weapons (particularly crossbows - would help differentiate them from bows) would also be very welcome for this reason.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Personally, I am not too passionate about radial menus, but I think that for functionality they could carry out the previously mentioned in a more effective way than the typical combination of buttons. More UI friendly, you know...

 

[Apocal]

Unfortunately the mod doesn't seem to work at the moment (game crashing); however I find this feature very interesting where the horses avoid frontally charging a well-positioned static spear/pike formation. This combined with the bracing spears feature would be pretty interesting in my opinion.

What do you think about it?

I think it would be pretty good in player hands.

 

[Pythagoras]

This is basicly all we need in terms of combat along with the map that is also proposed here (besides ambushes...). That would make the game so much more fun and playable. If only the world would be more credible and intelligent as well...

 

[mikeboix]

I'd like you to watch this mod Combat and Skills Rebalance videos:

Unfortunately the mod doesn't seem to work at the moment (game crashing); however I find this feature very interesting where the horses avoid frontally charging a well-positioned static spear/pike formation. This combined with the bracing spears feature would be pretty interesting in my opinion.

What do you think about it?

Yes absolutely. We totally need something like this to counter the absolute supremacy that heavy cavalry has (and always has had in other M&B titles) right now.

 

[Apocal]

Yes absolutely. We totally need something like this to counter the absolute supremacy that heavy cavalry has (and always has had in other M&B titles) right now.

"Absolute supremacy" is putting it a bit strongly for Bannerlord.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Taleworlds has just introduced passive damage (spear bracing) but the passive blocking still resists (the shields on the back do not block hits or projectiles).

Passive blocking and proper pike holding with passive damage. Props to @bestmods168 for making this possible, beautiful.


(*) The pike damage was upped by a factor of 70 for entertainment purposes.

 

[Memoefe]

Taleworlds has just introduced passive damage (spear bracing) but the passive blocking still resists (the shields on the back do not block hits or projectiles).

Passive blocking and proper pike holding with passive damage. Props to @bestmods168 for making this possible, beautiful.


(*) The pike damage was upped by a factor of 70 for entertainment purposes.

Two major thing is missing before this can be an amazing addition. One is ai that uses and counters this mechanic, other is some weakness to prevent this from being op (like some kind of maneuverability penalty).

 

[JuanNieve]

In the case of horse archers, if we give them the order to focus fire, would they fire from a stationary position or would they fire while moving and around the enemy?

 

[Terco_Viejo]

In the case of horse archers, if we give them the order to focus fire, would they fire from a stationary position or would they fire while moving and around the enemy?

I really like the current AI strategy for mounted archers; circling around the target, i must say. With the concept of the radial menu, as you say the focus fire would be in static shooting condition. On the other hand if we want to carry out the current strategy of circling the target while shooting it with arrows; the advanced command would be harass (imo)