Sprinkling the strategy: Advanced tactics with radial menu

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Bannerlord needs implement more complex strategies or tactics?

  • Yes

    Votes: 61 96.8%
  • No

    Votes: 2 3.2%

  • Total voters
    63

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
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What is fun for the player?

This is a question that every developer usually asks themselves. Most (surprisingly considerable) fans of the M&B saga are looking for a certain complexity in terms of tactical possibilities. I'm still surprised how much is being asked even nowadays for the implementation of the ambushes. Sadly, Taleworlds decided that this was not fun for the player and dropped it. But that's now history, isn't it? :iamamoron:

The luck of having a Community like ours, is that it shows itself as it is through what it wants and what it doesn't want (block delay, premade classes, etc). There are certain features that are repeated over and over again for its implementation as far as "complex tactics" are concerned (just look at the mods for Warband). This is where I'm going to talk about them.

If any of you have read me through the forum, you will have checked The tactical way: beyond the melee cluster thread. In there we discussed the AI handicaps and their relationship with basic and complex tactics.

Bannerlord is screaming for an extension of its basic commands in pursuit of advanced ones. I truly believe that this expansion shall be done through a radial-pie menu.
With this graphical user interface control element we would carry out our selection of advanced orders in a faster and more intuitive way. Something similar to this, which combines feedback from fellow forumites and mine:


Placeholder design, just to illustrate the concept

Basic orders
If you notice the basic default command panel (left) you will see that I have removed "advance", "fallback" and the return X's (I would remove all of them, what good is it if the same thing happens with Esc). The first and second commands will be restructured in the tactics section.

Practically everything will remain as it is except the F4 key which will be expanded to fire/ hold fire and use of weapons (see Battle Command: Switch Weapon). The use of weapons command is something basic that is surprisingly not implemented in Bannerlord and is extremely necessary.

The follow me command should be handled as in VC, keeping the relative position reference. This mod for Bannerlord is already experimented with.

As for the shieldwall formation, it should behave like the old "stand closer" Warband command in its final compact state. A line of bots very close together with the shields (if present) positioned forward in normal attack attitude; without showing the current passivity behaviour. A basic phalanx.

For the face direction command, I think it would be interesting to give it a twist with radial interfaces too. (see Compass UI for face direction command)

Tactics
I think the most intuitive way to display this radial menu would be to use the center mouse button. Then it would be displayed like this:

Engage: Bots marching slowly in formation (after a given order) towards the designated target. (see Engage Enemy Order (Alternative replacing Advance order))

Focus Fire: Bots with projectiles will focus solely and exclusively on a target determined by the user. (see Focus fire on enemy unit )

Volley Fire: We all know about this. Exactly what Caba`drin brought us in his day. (see [WB, SP] Order: Volley Fire!)

Harass:
This command performs the same behavior as the bots when approaching the default "advance" command if they have projectiles. A harass as a way to skirmish the enemy keeping the distance with it.

Fallback:
Order to move backwards. Currently bots, after ordering fallback tend to turn their backs to the enemy; this is not acceptable. Fallback ≠ Retreat . (see Fallback order does not work properly)

Guard me: Order to protect the general, a kind of "follow me" much more closely. In the first videos of Bannerlord you could see that order; it seems that it has been discarded (plausible).

Brace weapon:
We all know about this. If we talk about pikes or spears we would be thinking about the bracing function that The Mercenary brought to us. (see Spear Bracing Kit) . Any polearm will be wielded that way regardless of the assigned formation. Infantry only. A bot equipped with a shield and spear, if assigned to deploy a brace weapon command; it should unequip its shield behind its back and hold the spear with two hands. Passive damage in Bannerlord is possible through the couched lance function; however a user is experimenting with passive damage in static for a Bannerlord mod.

Testudo:
A mix of the current shieldwall and square. Shields in front of the first row and the rest protecting the heads. The pace of the march with this command selected should reduce by >25% of the speed of the formation. (see "TESTUDO" Formation | Referendum ) I testify that this can be done :lol: , myself and another user have experimented with it (mod)



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Poll and debate opened

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Tercero

Sergeant Knight
WBM&B
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This is very good Terco, there was another threat about using the ctrl to select subgroups within infantry, archers, etc. Which added to this would be great.
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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These kind of suggestions is what i'm waiting for, most went a bit stale recently, but as expected without a big patch for some time!

Really high detail, great visual representation, and a pinch of salt towards questionable design choices, where needed.

 

Memoefe

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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I literally suggested that few months ago (Command wheel) and everybody was pesimistic about it, and now terco does it and everybody loves it.

I hate you Terco :evil:. (jk I don't, you persuasive lad :grin:)
 

Piconi

Fashionista
Subforum Moderator
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Tbf, those are two separate command wheels, and the crowd judging the threads is also much different than in the "old days" of the Beta :lol:
 
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Sadly, Taleworlds decided that this was not fun for the player and dropped it. But that's now history, isn't it? :iamamoron:

@Callum, why on Earth do y'all think that your playerbase is composed of dimwits? Cutting off a highly requested feature without even letting players test it because "it wasn't much fun for the player" is just.... I don't even have the words.

I wouldn't be so annoyed about this if I hadn't already seen you say that you don't want the game to be "too complicated" somewhere else. Seems to be a trend, and frankly and with all due respect, a very tiresome one.
 
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why on Earth do y'all think that your playerbase is composed of dimwits? Cutting off a highly requested feature without even letting players test it because "it wasn't much fun for the player" is just.... I don't even have the words.
BTW this is the same game that, despite massive backlash from MP community, has re-implemented a feature which inherently made combat less responsive and predictable.
But apparently, having the player consciously pay attention to and manage footwork with KEYBOARD BUTTONS in the middle of a duel is "not complex and very much enjoyable".

It's an incredibly poor, nonsensical and ungrounded excuse I could think of and here it is.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
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Forwarded to the UI and design teams. Thanks for the input!
Thank you for your attention, always vigilant and working hard in the shadow to function as a direct link between the Community and the devs. Great job yours, we love you M. Arda! 😘

This is very good Terco, there was another threat about using the ctrl to select subgroups within infantry, archers, etc. Which added to this would be great.
Thanks, I don't know if I read that thread. Could you share it with us?

These kind of suggestions is what i'm waiting for, most went a bit stale recently, but as expected without a big patch for some time!

Really high detail, great visual representation, and a pinch of salt towards questionable design choices, where needed.
I needed an entry for the article...Salt and pepper equally :lol:


I literally suggested that few months ago (Command wheel) and everybody was pesimistic about it, and now terco does it and everybody loves it.

I hate you Terco :evil:. (jk I don't, you persuasive lad :grin:)
Well, my mom always says that I'm very special :lol:


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Nah, jokes aside; we are neither the first nor will we be the last to talk about implementing a radial menu. I remember a feedback from 578 in the beta period talking about a ping system with a very interesting radial menu.

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@eddiemccandless & @ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal

It should not be forgotten that Callum is only the messenger, sometimes missing or not very connected with the day-to-day life of the Community; but behind the scenes he is certainly doing his job, no doubt.

The issue of ambushes is of course a controversial one and so I am surprised to see that many people nowadays are unaware of these statements. But we always converge on the same point; the lack of communication or the "slow reaction" from the company regarding hot and high demand issues. Callum only communicates the guidelines that are given to him from above.

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As I mentioned in the initial post, what kind of complex strategies or tactics would you introduce? Or, how do you imagine the performance of those I refer to?
 

Tercero

Sergeant Knight
WBM&B
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Thank you for your attention, always vigilant and working hard in the shadow to function as a direct link between the Community and the devs. Great job yours, we love you M. Arda! 😘



Thanks, I don't know if I read that thread. Could you share it with us?



I needed an entry for the article...Salt and pepper equally :lol:




Well, my mom always says that I'm very special :lol:


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Nah, jokes aside; we are neither the first nor will we be the last to talk about implementing a radial menu. I remember a feedback from 578 in the beta period talking about a ping system with a very interesting radial menu.

---

@eddiemccandless & @ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal

It should not be forgotten that Callum is only the messenger, sometimes missing or not very connected with the day-to-day life of the Community; but behind the scenes he is certainly doing his job, no doubt.

The issue of ambushes is of course a controversial one and so I am surprised to see that many people nowadays are unaware of these statements. But we always converge on the same point; the lack of communication or the "slow reaction" from the company regarding hot and high demand issues. Callum only communicates the guidelines that are given to him from above.

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As I mentioned in the initial post, what kind of complex strategies or tactics would you introduce? Or, how do you imagine the performance of those I refer to?
Here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...ved-troop-control-system.424851/#post-9459319

I think this was one of the best suggestions to either use advanced group/formations control (holding ctrl) or stick with more simple controls in game without getting too complicated from a keyboard perspective
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
Best answers
0
Here: https://forums.taleworlds.com/index...ved-troop-control-system.424851/#post-9459319

I think this was one of the best suggestions to either use advanced group/formations control (holding ctrl) or stick with more simple controls in game without getting too complicated from a keyboard perspective
The thing is that presumably it is expected that Taleworlds will fix the grouping in the party screen and that the troop selection buttons (1,2,3...) in the battlefield will work as they are supposed to with toggle on/off and multiselection. What the OP says in that thread is already done by the new implementation of the subgroup menu (F7), what happens is that the above mentioned should work correctly and it's not like it happens nowadays. That said, it is a good alternative.

Based on the fact that the above mentioned will eventually be fixed officially, I would put together 3 elements with which in my opinion the tactical options would be extended to fulfill that need. The first one we already know, Pre battle orders & deployment; an essential classic. We know plausibly that this function will eventually be introduced in Bannerlord (only placement like in sieges/ plausible).
The second and third are current "Order of Battle" and Group/Subgroup panels.


This panel would be present both in the pre-battle phase (deployment) as well as in the battle itself. All this together working in harmony in a PBOD 2.0 style, which runs perfectly being simple and with no intention of reinventing the wheel. This along with my proposal, in my head works great. Another thing is that it is feasible or that Taleworlds wants to carry it out.


Concept - placeholder design
 

Tercero

Sergeant Knight
WBM&B
Best answers
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The thing is that presumably it is expected that Taleworlds will fix the grouping in the party screen and that the troop selection buttons (1,2,3...) in the battlefield will work as they are supposed to with toggle on/off and multiselection. What the OP says in that thread is already done by the new implementation of the subgroup menu (F7), what happens is that the above mentioned should work correctly and it's not like it happens nowadays. That said, it is a good alternative.

Based on the fact that the above mentioned will eventually be fixed officially, I would put together 3 elements with which in my opinion the tactical options would be extended to fulfill that need. The first one we already know, Pre battle orders & deployment; an essential classic. We know plausibly that this function will eventually be introduced in Bannerlord (only placement like in sieges/ plausible).
The second and third are current "Order of Battle" and Group/Subgroup panels.


This panel would be present both in the pre-battle phase (deployment) as well as in the battle itself. All this together working in harmony in a PBOD 2.0 style, which runs perfectly being simple and with no intention of reinventing the wheel. This along with my proposal, in my head works great. Another thing is that it is feasible or that Taleworlds wants to carry it out.


Concept - placeholder design
I think it is a similar concept, the thing is that the “ctrl formations approach” allows you to either go with as much as 32 subgroups (8 groups * 4 subgroups) or stick with the original 8 (by not using the ctrl subgroups).

I mean, 32 subgroups is a lot, but more than 8 might be required if people increase the battle size or even if they want to control 10 groups of 50 guys.

Having said that anything that improves formation and tactical possibilities, would be very much welcomed.
 

Memoefe

Squire
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
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Sometimes I wonder if they created a button for tactical pause+zoom out to create groups, commanding them etc. would it be too far from the soul of bannerlord. I mean its not the style of bannerlord but it would be easier and faster to command that most alternatives.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
Best answers
0
I think it is a similar concept, the thing is that the “ctrl formations approach” allows you to either go with as much as 32 subgroups (8 groups * 4 subgroups) or stick with the original 8 (by not using the ctrl subgroups).

I mean, 32 subgroups is a lot, but more than 8 might be required if people increase the battle size or even if they want to control 10 groups of 50 guys.

Having said that anything that improves formation and tactical possibilities, would be very much welcomed.
Then wouldn't it be better to add 2 more groups to the panel? I don't know, I believe that with the actual option ingame of Ctrl+ group selection (1/1+2+4) you can achieve interesting things without so many subgroups in between.
As you say 32, it's too much... too complex even for me. :lol:

Sometimes I wonder if they created a button for tactical pause+zoom out to create groups, commanding them etc. would it be too far from the soul of bannerlord. I mean its not the style of bannerlord but it would be easier and faster to command that most alternatives.
As you say, it would be changing the soul of the game by moving it dangerously to a totalwaresque territory (talking about the pure Native). The only tactical pause I consider is at the beginning of the battle through a PBOD system. There is a mod that carries out what you are currently talking about (link) :fruity:
 

Tercero

Sergeant Knight
WBM&B
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Then wouldn't it be better to add 2 more groups to the panel? I don't know, I believe that with the actual option ingame of Ctrl+ group selection (1/1+2+4) you can achieve interesting things without so many subgroups in between.
As you say 32, it's too much... too complex even for me. :lol:



As you say, it would be changing the soul of the game by moving it dangerously to a totalwaresque territory (talking about the pure Native). The only tactical pause I consider is at the beginning of the battle through a PBOD system. There is a mod that carries out what you are currently talking about (link) :fruity:
The only thing is that the method described by the op in that thread basically allows you to use or not the ctrl option, thus allowing the player to go as complicated as he wantes
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
Best answers
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The only thing is that the method described by the op in that thread basically allows you to use or not the ctrl option, thus allowing the player to go as complicated as he wantes
Well mate, paraphrasing you i say,
"Having said that anything that improves formation and tactical possibilities, would be very much welcomed"
:wink:
 

Marajah

Recruit
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0
Voted yes! I'd rather use key bindings than a radial menu if we're not playing on a joystick, but I'm down for the general idea of op's tactical options