Spears

[Kissaki]

...his point...

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that Amman de Stazia was a woman? (No, not because of the avatar.)

yeah, but back on topic, remember that i also asked for an option to thrust while couched that would do a lot more damage than a normal thrust, but that it would take some time to get back into the couching, about 3 seconds. That should give it some offensive power also.

Thrust while couched? I don't see how. They would be especially puny thrusts, in that case, because you're not in a position to use your body properly for offense. Or are you thinking of a technique I have not thought of?

 

[Corinthian Hoplite]

Well, what about allowing us to use spears like they were used?

1. 2x damage to horses (only).
2. Be able to charge with it, either throwing your opponent down or damaging him seriously.
3. Keep your adversary at distance with a lowered spear stance.

 

[triato]

Don't have weapons experience, but would a swordman not be able to deflect a spear in front of him and then advance?

 

[Merentha]

Don't have weapons experience, but would a swordman not be able to deflect a spear in front of him and then advance?

Depends on how long it is.  If the spearman is agile and has a relatively short spear, a two-hander is effectively dead when coming up on a man with a 6-ish foot spear.

Its far to easy to simply pull the spear back to avoid the deflect.

 

[Róisín]

Don't have weapons experience, but would a swordman not be able to deflect a spear in front of him and then advance?

Depends on how long it is.  If the spearman is agile and has a relatively short spear, a two-hander is effectively dead when coming up on a man with a 6-ish foot spear.

Its far to easy to simply pull the spear back to avoid the deflect.

Truth.  A spear-fighter looks a lot like a rapier fighter/fencer with the moves they use, especially the disengage.  In fact, in the SCA, rapier fighters that start to fight in armored combat are VERY deadly with a spear.  A sword & board fighter CAN get in close on the spear-fighter, pin his spear against him, and start beating him about the head, neck, and ears, but there are three or four steps on his way in where the spearman gets to take free shots at him before he gets in that close.  I think Spear vs. Shield tends to favour the shield (but only if he knows how to fight a spearmen, otherwise he'll just be left wondering HOW the spear seemed to phase through his shield into his sternum), and that Spear vs. 2H sword is about even, but Spear vs. a more clumsy 2Her like an axe is a big advantage to the spearman.

Either way, it tends to involve a lot of backwards running for the Spearman.

 

[Merentha]

Spear vs two-hander favors the spear by far, assuming both are unarmored.  The instant armor comes into the equation, the two-hander gets a huge edge.

 

[Kissaki]

Depends on the two-hander, and depends on the armour. In heavy armour, the spear has the edge over a sword meant for cutting. It's about equal to a sword meant for stabbing.

 

[redmonk]

I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that Amman de Stazia was a woman? (No, not because of the avatar.)

yeah, but back on topic, remember that i also asked for an option to thrust while couched that would do a lot more damage than a normal thrust, but that it would take some time to get back into the couching, about 3 seconds. That should give it some offensive power also.

Thrust while couched? I don't see how. They would be especially puny thrusts, in that case, because you're not in a position to use your body properly for offense. Or are you thinking of a technique I have not thought of?

well, when you're couched, you bend down so that you can absorb the shock of the enevitable cavalry/infantryman running 30 kmph onto your spear better, and back then, when two formations of spearmen met up it was common tactics to thrust, because whatever side advanced advanced onto the enemy spears example:

                            o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
                            | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                                          |
                            | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                      o= spearman|= Spear
                            | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                                          |
                              o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

Now just imaine that those spears are the same length, and that all of the spears are right in front of someone. One more step and you die. Now the ONLY way to get them was to stab, and that was done by just bursting upwards and this stab was in fact more powerful than a normal stab, because you were using your hands, as you would in an ordinary thrust, but you were also using your entire body, when it sort of exploded upwards.

And remember guys, i'm NOT asking for formations yet, i just want the couching ability for now, formations can come later.

 

[Kissaki]

well, when you're couched, you bend down so that you can absorb the shock of the enevitable cavalry/infantryman running 30 kmph onto your spear better, and back then, when two formations of spearmen met up it was common tactics to thrust, because whatever side advanced advanced onto the enemy spears example:

                             o o o o o o o o o o o o o o
                             | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                                          |
                             | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                       o= spearman|= Spear
                             | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |                                                          |
                              o o o o o o o o o o o o o o

Now just imaine that those spears are the same length, and that all of the spears are right in front of someone. One more step and you die. Now the ONLY way to get them was to stab, and that was done by just bursting upwards and this stab was in fact more powerful than a normal stab, because you were using your hands, as you would in an ordinary thrust, but you were also using your entire body, when it sort of exploded upwards.

And remember guys, i'm NOT asking for formations yet, i just want the couching ability for now, formations can come later.

But when couching your spear (and now I go by the couched pike position in an earlier illustration in this thread) you are not in a position to "burst up", because your hind leg is already fully extended -- it cannot kick off.

And even then, it's a bad idea when in formation because first of all, you are not only bringing the spear closed to the spearmen, but you are also bringing your own body closer to their spears. If they thrust at the same time (and have equal length spears), you will skewer yourself. Second, it's a make or break tactic. Once you're up, then what? The little extra power (because it's not going to be much -- in my mind it is actually weaker unless you totally overextend yourself, and it's certainly less controlled) does not justify ending up as spent as you would. Without knowing enough about orderly pike formations of history, I still think this was never done by spearmen.

 

[triato]

So, how can spears have those edges in game, right now we do have one hit free at least becouse of it's range, but defending against it is to easy, in RL the spear thrust can go up. middle, low, etc and defence would be very active, righ now defence against it is very easy.

 

[Merentha]

Give spears two forms of attack, a rapid jab that does next to no armor penetration and doesn't use your powerstrike bonus, and then the normal.  Make npcs get stopped cold if they get stabbed with a spear.  Give the ability to make a quick hop backwards, one that is faster than running backwards in the short term, but slower in the long (bind it to double-tap back).

I don't think we need any form of grounding spears, though.

 

[Kaiser Bill]

Depends on the two-hander, and depends on the armour. In heavy armour, the spear has the edge over a sword meant for cutting. It's about equal to a sword meant for stabbing.

Plate armour can be beaten by heavy weapons, more so than a stabbing weapon.  The reason why blunt weapons are effective against plate armour is not that they bash through it, but the shock causes ripples through the plate armour and breaks/shatters bones.  Same goes for swords and axes, since they have force behind them.  The actual cutting is generally stoped, but the shock from the weapon (essepcially from heavy, two-handed weapons) can still cause significant (if not fatal) damage.  Furthermore, the whole point of two handed swords was to smash through plate armour.  On the other hand, a spear is likely to be unable to punch through plate, and furthermore is less likely to cause enough shock to do any damage.  Therefore more armour means heavy weapons win.

Stabbing swords are mostly useful against heavy armour as they are small enough and light enough to target unarmoured areas.  A broadsword is hard to coordinate so that it hits through the joints in armour, a short sword or dagger is not.  On the other hand, stab a plated fighter with a dagger on the armour and you will probably break/bend the dagger.

Not that I am attacking spears.  Spears are vastly underpowered in M&B.

Can they not be used like quarterstaffs.  Like swords have cutting damage for a swing and piercing for a thrust, give them blunt for a swing and piercing for a thrust.  Swinging hits the target with the staff part of the spear, stabbing stabs them with the sharp bit.  Seems less complex than some other suggestions (buit in terms of realism might be dubious; my experience of fighting mostly comes from LARP, which is, when it comes to pole-arms, very unrealistic).

 

[Merentha]

You are partially correct, except that swords were almost never used to simply hack at armor to bash the enemy.

 

[Merlkir]

Yeah, the meaning of two handed swords was completely different than hacking plates..

 

[redmonk]

it actually was possible to pull of the manouver of doing a powerful thrust, only not with a pike, it was mostly used with a shorter spear, and the thrust was propelled with the left foot. I did make one mistake though, this was NOT used against other spearman formations, but rather in smaller skirmishing battles where when infantry charged on the spearmen they would burst out to put even more speed onto the spear, sort of like when one car crashes into a parked car doing 60, or when 2 cars crash into each other head on both doing 60. This was as i said, only possible with spears, and they had to be a bit shorter at that, so that you could pull back fast enough. Remember that behind the first rank there was a second rank with their spears over the first rank's shoulders, and their spear points only about 2 feet behind the first ranks spear points, and after the first rank thrusted, they only had to walk back about 2 feet and then they were safe enough to re-form.

Also I'm not trying to go for perfect historical accuracy, because if so then this game fails miserably at that, this should just give the spear more power, because I am trying to make it so that they are not so underpowered any more.

 

[Kissaki]

One great thing about plate is that it's a tremendous shock absorber. Hit a breastplate, for example, and the shock will be dispersed through the plate itself -- it will not transfer to the body unless it has actually caved in to physically connect with the body. An axe might do just that, especially with its hammer, but still the head remains the only bodypart which is truly vulnerable to that kind of attack, in spite of the helmet. Plate defeating weapons are either weapons that will pierce or cave in plate (such as warhammers), or bypass armour (such as swords).

 

[Kissaki]

it actually was possible to pull of the manouver of doing a powerful thrust, only not with a pike, it was mostly used with a shorter spear, and the thrust was propelled with the left foot. I did make one mistake though, this was NOT used against other spearman formations, but rather in smaller skirmishing battles where when infantry charged on the spearmen they would burst out to put even more speed onto the spear, sort of like when one car crashes into a parked car doing 60, or when 2 cars crash into each other head on both doing 60. This was as i said, only possible with spears, and they had to be a bit shorter at that, so that you could pull back fast enough. Remember that behind the first rank there was a second rank with their spears over the first rank's shoulders, and their spear points only about 2 feet behind the first ranks spear points, and after the first rank thrusted, they only had to walk back about 2 feet and then they were safe enough to re-form.

Do you have a picture or illustration of the couched position, from which this was done? Because I still can't picture it.

Also I'm not trying to go for perfect historical accuracy, because if so then this game fails miserably at that, this should just give the spear more power, because I am trying to make it so that they are not so underpowered any more.

On this, at least, we agree. It would help a lot to simply give them more speed, and remove the penalties for not attacking at the weapon's optimum range. This would be a specifically spear benefit (in grappling range the spear is essentially a dagger on a stick).

 

[Orion]

[quote author="Kaiser Bill"] Like swords have cutting damage for a swing and piercing for a thrust, give them blunt for a swing and piercing for a thrust.[/quote]

Indeed. There are even animations that come with the game just for polearm swings, and they're used with the Glaive, Poleaxe, and the various staffs.

When it comes down to it, isn't a spear just a staff with a sharpened point?

I bet if they had blunt swing damage, then infantry players would -always- carry one, both for prisoners and cavalry.

Somebody mod this, now.

 

[redmonk]

Ack, sadly, i read this in a book about the history of weapons and their uses at my uncle's house in michigan, and i live in NC, so I won't be able to get a picture . But here is an explanation of how they would do the thrust in combat. What you would do is move your hands just a bit farther down the shaft, and when you are couching your right foot would be behind your body a bit and sideways, sort of holding the end of the spear, what you would then do is right before thrusting quickly lift the spear out from under your foot, turn your foot so it faces forward, take a quick small step forward with the right foot, and then thrust by taking a larger step with the left foot and then propelling your self forward and thrusting. when used in formation this was to provide a sort of sheltered punch, where the thrust was only propelled to the end of the second ranks spears, and then quickly retreat. When drilled continuesly in formation, it would be performed as one large fluid motion and as i said earlier it was like one huge punch by the formation, which would either break the enemy line, or at least disorganise it enough so that the spear formation had a good 10 seconds to break out of couching and advance into the now weakened enemy line, and attack the unprepared and unprotected second and third ranks. It was used to great effect by a certain people in either the Iberian peninsula or the balkan, not sure which, but was soon eclipsed by the more popular pike formation which had a farther reach, and the heavy cavalry charge, which was more powerful.  But I am sure that in the current skirmishing combat that this game implements it would be useful to include it.

 

[Merentha]

It sounds too offbalanced to be any use at all in a duel or small fight.