Serious suggestion. SERIOUS!

[FurionLumin]

I like the idea of no classes. As for starting equipment, it'd be based on what your best weapon skill is.

Like, if your highest weapon skill is in bowss you'd start with bow and arrows.
If it was One-hand weapons, you'd get a random one-hand starting weapon (Sword, axe, or club)

As for armor, it'd be based on your other skills. If you have high melee-style skills, you'd get stronger armor.

If it is more of a healer, you'd get weaker armor. If you have a style of more merchant-like (trade, tracks, spotting, pathfinding), you'd start out with little weapon/armor but more money.

 

[Stonkey]

That would be cool, but it might be a bit hard. Having 4 distinct weapon sets and having one weapon set that changes around depending on skills is a big jump.

 

[FurionLumin]

I doubt it'd be that hard. The weaponsets would just change with whatever's highest.

As for armor, you just need to add up the points for "melee" skills (that'd include weapons. Every 10 points in that would equal one point in seeing what you get). Stats would be 1:2

So if someone had Power Draw 3, Weaponmaster 1, Tracking 1, Spotting 1, Pathfinding 1, Ironflesh 2, Trade 1, AGI 9, STR 9, INT 5, CHA 5, Bow 70, Crossbow 10, the rest 10 each.

That'd make something like...

Melee Rating: 25
Ranged Rating: 29
Healer Rating: 10
Merchant Rating: 14

The weapon levels would mean you get a Bow. The ratings would mean you get the Ranged armor set.

 

[Patrick Blackbird]

i strongly disagree with scrapping classes.

this is an RPG, not an FPS with swords.

if you really have a problem with your starting skills, or stats, you've got to be kidding, you can level up at least 50 times, if that's not enough time for you to completely change your character, say from a hunter, to a knight, then there's something wrong with you. it actually happened to me once, i started out with a hunter, and was using my bow for the longest time then suddenly i discovered a nomad sabre, at the end of this character's life (when i updated to .731) he was decked out in a black full plate, steel shield, and a bastard sword, and guess what, he still kicked ass, even though he started as an archer-based character.

if you're complaining about customization you've got 50 levels to customize, honestly...

 

[Blink]

RPG? This game is NOT an RPG. It may have been intended to be. It's far from that. All you've gotta do is remove the starting classes. They make no sense anyways. You should start out in the training arena. Maybe fighting to become free or something? Then after winning, you get to pick your weapon, and you're given some raggy clothing. I'm pretty sure all the low lifes wore the same clothing. Except the squire, maybe. It's a great game that has yet to be turned into an RPG.

 

[Blink]

Why do you people complicate simple things?

 

[Patrick Blackbird]

classes do make sense, they're abackground for your character (hm.. doesn't sound like an rpg at all yet does it?)

i don't understand how this is not an rpg, have you even talked to any of the counts? have you noticed there's a war going on and you can join either faction, make war on the other, and complete missions for the counts/lords? or that you can accept missions (such as protect the caravan on it's way to destination, or rescue the kidnapped girl) from the merchants in towns?

what the hell is "you people" supposed to mean anyway? people who consider this game an rpg, or people who, for whatever reason, logical or not, disagree with you?

 

[thesneakster]

I am being completely reasonable and simple about this.

You should remove the classes.

Not only does it start you off with skills that you may not specifically want, but it removes your choice of being what you want to be. It's a great job you did on it, but it should definately not be there. I know ALMOST ALL of the people here like to be what they want to be, and one of the classes you offer may not be exactly it. I think you should start off with all the same traits and a skill levels.. and be able to mold your character in any way. A very serious suggestion indeed, bound to be critisized by a few on this forum.

It would be cool, but the 'classes' arn't really a limiting factor, I mean, i can train a squire to be a good horse archer, a merchant to be a good ranged/melle fighter anyway at the moment, and did you think about haw the classes affect your starting good/money/weapons?

 

[Blink]

You don't understand, though. Why would you pick a squire to become that? Why not just not pick nothing and call yourself whatever you want and start working at it?

All i'm saying, guys, is that why go through a step that won't even have an effect. It would only make the game look better in the future.

 

[Patrick Blackbird]

if you're making a character that you intend to make a knight out of, currently, you'd pick squire, if you were setting your own stats, you would most likely end up with similar, if not the same skills and stats.

if you're thinking of minimizing your charisma and intelligence in order to raise your agility and strength, well you're digging your own grave, because then you'll move slower on the map, you won't be able to recruit a very large band, you won't be able to see enemies (on the world map) until they're right on you, this is because all those skills are based on intelligence and charisma.

you can have 21 strength, 21 agility, 1 intelligence, and 1 charisma but once you get chased down by a band of dark knights, you're done.

 

[Howzer]

orrrr....

you make a simple MOD and make your own custom class, or delete the class menu with a MOD. it's very very very easy. that was the first thing i did when i started on a mod, but then i scrapped it, but that's a long story.

Anyways, not very hard to mod.

 

[FurionLumin]

classes do make sense, they're abackground for your character (hm.. doesn't sound like an rpg at all yet does it?)

Why can't you just develop how you want your character to be? If you want to make a squire character, you can adjust the stats for your character. At the point, you can GIVE your character a background of being a squire, or a self-taught swordsman. Or a nomad hunter. Whatever the hell you want. How would taking out Pre-set class sets remove an RPG element?

if you're thinking of minimizing your charisma and intelligence in order to raise your agility and strength, well you're digging your own grave, because then you'll move slower on the map, you won't be able to recruit a very large band, you won't be able to see enemies (on the world map) until they're right on you, this is because all those skills are based on intelligence and charisma.

you can have 21 strength, 21 agility, 1 intelligence, and 1 charisma but once you get chased down by a band of dark knights, you're done.

That'd be the creator's fault. At that point, he/she'll have to either recreate a more balanced character, or start working on places he/she is lacking in. It's no different from being able to create, say, a squire, put ALL your points into something like trade, INT, and swords while using a bow with full-plated armor and no athletics and no side-weapons.

And like, placing skills in power-throw when you don't use throwing weapons.

Edit:

Oh, and another thing. There are two other heroes you can have. No matter what your leadership is, you can still have 5 other people in your group. So, you get the two heroes, and have them pick up the slack on INT and CHA. Prisoner management, spotting, tracking, pathfinding, etc.

 

[Blink]

Well put.

 

[Damien]

Sounds a lot to me like a little something we in the tabletop gaming community call 'cherry-picking.'


In any event, they're not really classes at all. They're backgrounds. Choose what you did -BEFORE- you started your career as a Swadian Grunt or a Mercenary bad-ass, or a famous woodland outlaw.

The only thing this choice affects is what stuff you start with. Pick whichever former vocation fits your character concept and go from there. It's part of creating a character.


Here's a question for you Blink (and will you re-size your avatar, please?): What is it about the current choices that displeases you? Why do you feel the need to design your own starting 'package' as it were? What do the current ones not have that you want?

 

[FurionLumin]

Not every single squire will have the same skills. Some may be skilled in tracking, while others in first aid. Some maybe just COMPLETELY focused in fighting.

After all, squires were apprentices of knights, and they had to learn how to do things based on what their knights desired. The thing is that there may be some things placed differently than what you'd like.

As an example, a squire starts off with:
1 Tactics
1 Leadership
1 Prisoner Management
1 Riding
1 Shield
2 Weapon Master
3 Powerstrike
2 Ironflesh.

Now, maybe the person wants it so their squire hadn't used shields at all? Maybe they trained with all two-handed weapons? Or maybe they were trained not to take any prisoners, so they don't have any prisoner management. Perhaps they were trained as footsoldiers, and not with horses.

Edit: Thanks for resizing the avatar =P

 

[Blink]

It doesn't matter, and there's no need for someone to come in and break it all down with technicality.

To answer your questions.. there's NOTHING wrong with the current choices. Only that the game is NOT an RPG(right now), therefore there should be no class choosing. You're playing a role that has no job, really. When it would be just completely better to not have to choose anything. Just choose the gender, and place your beginning skill points. Nobody wants to play a game that their forced to play. That's where alot of the big time companies go wrong, they only give the customers a limited choice, when players feel special when they can be them.

In the life of a person, you're not limited to a small amount of things. You can do whatever you like, players like that feel. They want to play in an era they weren't in, but still get to be themselves. Now, sure.. you can MOLD your squire into something else, but what's the point? I start with skill points on a certain thing, when I could get them to put on any 0 I wanted. It's just a suggestion that would make the customers happier.

If by the time your a high level, and you've got great skills and such.. you'll forget all about what skill set you chose. So, why even have it?

 

[Damien]

Not every single squire will have the same skills. Some may be skilled in tracking, while others in first aid. Some maybe just COMPLETELY focused in fighting.

Not everything can be accomplished at first level. Your -background- sets the stage. Want to play someone that got more tracking skills? At 1st-2nd level upgrade your intelligence and use your skill points on tracking.

The 'Squire' path does not represent every squire's full training, it represents the basic stuff that all real squires would be required to learn. Anything else is stuff you do with your upgrades.

Now, maybe the person wants it so their squire hadn't used shields at all? Maybe they trained with all two-handed weapons? Or maybe they were trained not to take any prisoners, so they don't have any prisoner management. Perhaps they were trained as footsoldiers, and not with horses.

Actually most squires did receive effectively the same training. There were certain things every knight was -expected- to be able to do, and so squires learned these things first.


The background choices are archetypes for a video-game. What you do with them with your own upgrade options at 1st level and beyond is entirely up to you, but the background choice itself is designed, presumably, to create the archetype from which you sprung.

To answer your questions.. there's NOTHING wrong with the current choices.

Then what, exactly, is the problem?

Only that the game is NOT an RPG(right now)

Yes, it is.

"A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance."

therefore there should be no class choosing.

There isn't. A class is a structured 'ladder' - a tier-by-tier concept that you climb as you gain 'levels.' M&B does not have this. Your background choices of your original vocation in no way affects the character you can choose to become later, and is therefore not a class.

A class is about where you're going, a background is about where you've been.

Nobody wants to play a game that their forced to play.

No one is forcing you to play M&B.

It would be better if people would stop reading every post on the forums as an attack, they feel they must defend.

So basically, everyone should choose to not disagree with you, because you view that as an aggitated response?

Why defend something that clearly makes no sense?

Insulting the common sense of others is no way to get your point across in a friendly manner. ****.

In the life of a person, you're not limited to a small amount of things.

Nor are you in M&B, anymore than in any other RPG.

 

[FurionLumin]

Nor are you in M&B, anymore than in any other RPG.

Sure you are. In some RPG's (like FFII), all your characters start off with small stats. You can choose to increase their abilities how you wish. ANYONE can become ANYTHING, and they don't really have any predetermined "set". You cast spells to gain INT and MP, you get hit to increase HP and Natural Defense, you attack with weapons to get their skill up and your STR.. (Of course, this game didn't have any levels. But still, let you create your characters how you wanted.)

Irregardless of all your statements about Squires, not all hunters, or priests, or merchants will have the -exact- same. I still say squires don't have the exact same, but yes, they were expected to have some knowledges.

But that'd depend where and who they were trained by. Being trained by a merciless knight may train him to kill all opponents and take no prisoners.

Not to mention you might not want to have been a squire. Maybe you want to be a self-taught swordsman? This opens more roleplaying features, being able to give your character their own background.

 

[Blink]

Eh?

 

[Damien]

nd it's plain to see neither will understand the others view

I understand yours

t don't understand what's the problem with removing something that has no importance.

Obviously people like it, and think that it's a good background builder, and a good limiting factor to keep you from simply uberizing a character from the start. There are clearly a lot of different reasons people like it.

Your argument falls apart simply because people are here defending it, which obviously means that it's not a useless, wasted aspect of the game.

Sure you are. In some RPG's (like FFII), all your characters start off with small stats.

Gee, you mean like in M&B?

You can choose to increase their abilities how you wish.

Gee, you mean like in the M&B character window after you do all the other creation stuff? Incredible.

ANYONE can become ANYTHING

You mean.. like in M&B?

Irregardless of all your statements about Squires, not all hunters, or priests, or merchants will have the -exact- same.

No, they won't. Which is why right in the beginning of the game you are given a bunch of ability and skill points to distribute however you wish before you even start playing.

Being trained by a merciless knight may train him to kill all opponents and take no prisoners.

You mean, train him to be poor? That would be pretty dumb.

Not to mention you might not want to have been a squire. Maybe you want to be a self-taught swordsman?

I -do- think that M&B needs a "Grunt Soldier" type option.