PW dead

[NOVICIUS]

sry i meant to reed it tomorrow (but YOU know)

power to player mean:

let them kill each other/ let them do whatever they want to do/ let them be and survive and create civilization they want to have...

It is exactly what you are saying and in contrary you actually agree with what i have said. If it is not please correct me.

Servers which give players money and illusion of admin protection are full at pick hours (school end hours ok?)

Servers who try  to do whatever is suggested by players are not doing so well.

My solution (?): set up server with great map (essential) and wait one year until become full. Sample: native wolf... the most challanging and mean TDM server ever. Try to log in in pick hours. They keep it small. They keep it hard. No rules. No excuses. If you play there you maybe (how silly it sounds) be proud of yourself.

What I want is PW server where only the best (or the worst) will survive and keep playing to create something better than TDM. Simple but so hard to achive. I have no money (now) to bail out such a server. Maybe one day...

I would love to say to the complaining player: If you do not like it leave cause there is plenty who wait to get online... on PW server.

Maybe Laszlo PW WAR is better than PW4. I do not know.

I do not know cause PW WAR was just a try and never get to the Vornne level of development.

Players are generally confused about what is PW and how do I play? Confusion is always wrong. Rules add to it. It is all damn simple and has been argued for years now.

I do not have money? Do You? If You have you can do it. If you do not there is no point left to argue about.

 

[Erk]

I still consider myself a great roleplayer when I want to be. However, given past experience and history, the best roleplay that I've had were results of things happening that were "against the rules".

In an event based server there is no need for rules. If everyone is coming from an organized team and is participating on PW events a few times a week odds are no one will be griefing or misbehaving in very obvious ways.

You cannot expect that from random players that log in with random names. Organization from chaos is clearly not the dominant mode. Blame the admins all you want, but truth is the majority of servers have not been able to enforce 24-7 their rules and yet I have barely ever seen any of that spontaneous interesting stuff.

I will say it again, rules suck. Big time. But they are needed when you have total strangers playing together. Otherwise this is griefer´s paradise. The solution for me is to drop the rules, but also rethink how we play PW (I do not anymore). Perhaps this has not been done besides the very early PW, but that just proves that there is a complete lack of community, not that it does not work. No rules servers have always been around, all have fallen.

Truth is, v4 is completely unplayable. It is supposed to work as a ¨market¨, but it is awefully designed in that sense. What is best for individual players almost never coincides with interesting gameplay, the supply chain depends on some idiotic lord who might spend his or her time welling to random strangers to get things done so that a couple of trolls ruin it all...

It will never worked and it has never worked. Not a single map has been self sufficient, admin spawns have always been a complete necessity. The whole concept is flawed. Events or die, this what I say. It is quite obvious that no rules is not a solution to revitalize PW.

 

[Splintert]

Events is a good way to kill it, if you're going to be like that. You said yourself that you'd only expect people to play once a week. No one's going to do that. Napoleonic Wars and Mount&Musket have/had a devoted community other than their line battle events. Because that's what it takes. No one wants to play PW for an hour and then wait till next week. It's not interesting to the individual any more than getting killed by organized trolls is.

Which brings me to the point. Of course you're going to get killed by trolls as an individual. Why? The trolls have organized. They have structure. They follow a leader. That's the point of PW, Erk. These alleged trolls have figured out how to play the mod while you're still trying to push individualism in a team game.

Instead of doing what everyone has done in the past, whine and try to create a perfect environment by unstoppable force (admins), you could realize that you're getting beat because you're not playing right and adapt your gameplay so you don't get beat anymore. If you don't want to get killed by trolls, organize, become more powerful. Then you're in control of the situation, plus you didn't have to use unstoppable admin force thus leading to actual interesting, dynamic gameplay.

 

[NOVICIUS]

Instead of doing what everyone has done in the past, whine and try to create a perfect environment by unstoppable force (admins), you could realize that you're getting beat because you're not playing right and adapt your gameplay so you don't get beat anymore. If you don't want to get killed by trolls, organize, become more powerful. Then you're in control of the situation, plus you didn't have to use unstoppable admin force thus leading to actual interesting, dynamic gameplay.

And you do not get ban while trying.. but well all randomers can say the same... Decisions, decisions...

___________________________________________________________________________________

it is somehow brilliant how quickly ppl jump to arguments they know and run away from challenging points they are unsecured off.

LET me drow it for you:

MONEY -> SERVER -> RULES /NO RULES YOU LIKE - -> A LOT OF TIME --> SUCCESS = finding the very group of players you were looking for and expanding it by adverts and other means

 

[Erk]

Events is a good way to kill it, if you're going to be like that. You said yourself that you'd only expect people to play once a week. No one's going to do that. Napoleonic Wars and Mount&Musket have/had a devoted community other than their line battle events. Because that's what it takes. No one wants to play PW for an hour and then wait till next week. It's not interesting to the individual any more than getting killed by organized trolls is.

Which brings me to the point. Of course you're going to get killed by trolls as an individual. Why? The trolls have organized. They have structure. They follow a leader. That's the point of PW, Erk. These alleged trolls have figured out how to play the mod while you're still trying to push individualism in a team game.

Instead of doing what everyone has done in the past, whine and try to create a perfect environment by unstoppable force (admins), you could realize that you're getting beat because you're not playing right and adapt your gameplay so you don't get beat anymore. If you don't want to get killed by trolls, organize, become more powerful. Then you're in control of the situation, plus you didn't have to use unstoppable admin force thus leading to actual interesting, dynamic gameplay.

I know perfectly well how to play PW. Truth is, I have lead different factions for very long periods of time. That´s not incompatible with what I am saying. On the contrary, because I have lead from RPish factions (TW) to robber gangs (quite successfully) including regular factions (castle, then attack other castles, etc.) I am very aware of the shortcomings of the system.

I am not claiming that business as usual works in PW. I am not whining, nor trying to create an admin dominated environment because some 12 years old kept killing me with his skillz. What I am saying is that your theory of order from chaos is simply nonsense. How old is PW? In all this time, no one has realized that no rules is the preferred game mode and the most fun? This has been an option all along and people chose NOT to use it. It must be for a reason and it cannot be the lack of community or what not because setting up a no rules server is the easiest thing in the world.

No rules permanent servers up only works for native. Or to play some zombie survival in PW.  But not everyone likes that. There are plenty of event based games, including but not limited to NW. Have you ever played NW in a regular server when there is not an event? It is pure simple DM. Now and then some people bunch up in a group (I used to do it in native), but it is the most unusual thing. It is perfectly feasible to set up sessions of PW part of a longer campaign and I am quite convinced that same as it works in other games and mods it would work for PW.

The reason why this has never been implemented is because there is no community. The few regulars end up being admins and waste their time trying to police servers where we have random trolls log in with a variety of names or even CD keys just to grief. Anyone with experience leading factions knows that it is a very frustrating experience. That is, not simply bullying factions that go around yelling DROP EVERYthINGZ OR DIE NUB! The reason is that factions have literally no goal, no impact in the world (restocking and what not is a waste of time and boring, better to use existing supplies).

In a server which plays a PW campaign (not Aldric style, rather, regular PW with some further goals) there is no need for rules at all. You could very well have a server up during regular times with absolutely no rules  (for people to get to know each other) and a campaign for the more interesting times. This would require a critical mass of creative people which sadly left the game long ago. By event, not to be confused with hugely admin orchestrated situations. Rather, with controlled environments in the sense that you know that you are facing a lad who will be playing in the coming weeks with the very same name. Reputation, long term relations, long term goals. The things that turn a random troll into someone who cares more about the game.

 

[Splintert]

Oh, so you want a locked server? Like all the ones that don't exist? You're arguing against yourself here.

Once again, I have been arguing that there are no no rules servers not because it is inferior, but because it is harder. No one wants to have to work for their stuff, so they flood admined servers for free stuff so they can ignore the teamwork aspect of the game and be malicious. It's not possible to be a troll if most of the playerbase would sooner kill you than think they're safe because they don't know you. This is the core of my argument. Chaos brings organization because it has to. If there is no organization, there are no weapons (unless you have server mods, which is why we have no organization right now). If you don't organize you don't have a weapon. If you don't have a weapon you can't protect yourself from the inevitable idiot who holds W until he finds someone and spams click.

Controlled environments. How are you going to control it, if you claim you won't use administrative powers?

 

[Erk]

Right, because in servers where stuff runs out people do not fight each other with sticks if need be...I have played for years while you came to the forums to claim stuff based on your experience earlier on as a player and administrator. Let me tell you, people do NOT restock reliably. Every large server I have played on has had the very same problem which was solved basically by reseting once a week.

But now let´s examine the logic of your argumentation. No rules is better, but its better in some weird sense because when offered the chance people prefer not to play in such servers. In addition, the vast majority of servers that have lasted any time at all are servers with rules. What happens YOU prefer servers without rules because YOU think they are more fun but the majority of the playerbase disagrees. You tried, you failed (I recall a few of the servers and options you championed with fewer rules and they all died), why keep bringing up the same old argument?

Now, as for event based servers. Those have not been tried beyond the very early PW. Why not? Because we got stuck in the mentality that a server has to be on 24/7. But nothing in PW plays well in such setting, as it is meant to be played in rounds. The persistency of the world actively works against the concept of the mod. In a 2 hours session what you achieve is mostly determined by the left overs of previous players and numerous resets. It is not possible to play as in stocking, warring and calling it a day when you cap the other team s castle. Why? People's sessions don't overlap, breaking the sense of two teams fighting each other. In addition, as I said, the environment is very loaded before you join the server (maxed stockpiles or depleted stock piles, castles with everything broken, etc.).

In a server formed by teams of people who gather specially for events all those issues disappear. The server can be placed in a state where everything is determined by the effort of the teams. Presumably the majority of members stay for the duration of the match. Since names persist through matches, people get to know the others. Furthermore, griefers are extremely easy to find. You don't need rules, you let players basically do as they wish. Reputation and repeat play take care of the rest.

This requires a community, though. A community that has been scared by the chaos that has been PW for years. This does not mean people who want to be walking around in plate armor calling themselves kings. Those existed, but that is not what I defend or how I have played and everyone who has played with me knows it. I defend ACTION RP, not bla bla bla. But even people who like action end up fed up when nothing makes sense and everyone is just shooting each other's backs. Zombie survival where nothing makes any sense gets annoying very quickly. Restocking for half of my session just to be trolled and killed at every moment, annoyingly pressing F? Attempting anything constructive in PW in business as usual is completely useless and people know it. Hence, we need something new as a solution. Not the same old tired song about rules.

 

[Splintert]

I'm not sure, Erk. There's always been weapons floating around even before gear was saved across sessions. People can fight with sticks, but they're always going to want to fight with not sticks. Naturally there isn't going to be overflowing stockpiles of dozens of swords, because there is a constant demand. The whole point of PW is that a player joins, puts into the economy by working, then takes out by fighting before leaving the server and losing everything but most of his money. I don't know what you expect, that everyone should be armed to the teeth? Why are there always weapons around despite you claiming that it is near impossible to craft them? Did you know you can press T while holding F to make it automatically hold the button?

I know that all of my personal servers have failed. There were only 2, and one was outcompeted by scripted servers. Can't really beat something that gives everything to the player on a silver platter, can we? They were moderately successful for a time - something that cannot be said for so-called event servers.

Either way, when I talk about ruleless servers I don't mean anything I've done. I'm talking about the first PW servers, the ones that had over a hundred players and not a single admin and and resets every 2-3 hours. Rulelessness is possible, while a locked "event" server that you want simply doesn't work. It's too exclusive. There has never been enough players to support picking a select few for a locked server. And don't act like you're not going to lock it, because then you'll get exactly what I'm arguing for - a ruleless server.

I'm not so sure what you want to change, Erk. I want to see scripts removed and rules cut back. What do you want? If you were going to make a server right now, what would you do?

 

[Erk]

Easy. I would start a server that comes up 2 times a week for 2 long sessions of PW among people from organized groups.

I would organize those events in a persistent campaign and I would set up a forum for in between sessions.

I would try to have it hosted by some NW regiment server (or even a number of them rotating) to minimize costs. Ideally for free since they would be supported by those regiments who also play.

If I had it my way, I would introduce some modifications to make it have a medieval feel. Examples would be

- No global chat, no faction chat.
- No message on kill, if possible.
- No scoreboards by faction, if possible.
- Name tags disabled by default.
- A good scene that makes some strategic sense, an economy based on scarcity not the current superabundance.
- A max number of people by classes and clan from the start of the event (1 knight for every 5 men or whatever).

Locked servers don t work because people want them to be permanently up. There isn´t enough player base for that. But there is overall enough people to fill a server (200 slots) for events. It would just need to be good enough to be appealing.

 

[AvarianKnight]

I'm not sure, Erk. There's always been weapons floating around even before gear was saved across sessions. People can fight with sticks, but they're always going to want to fight with not sticks. Naturally there isn't going to be overflowing stockpiles of dozens of swords, because there is a constant demand. The whole point of PW is that a player joins, puts into the economy by working, then takes out by fighting before leaving the server and losing everything but most of his money. I don't know what you expect, that everyone should be armed to the teeth? Why are there always weapons around despite you claiming that it is near impossible to craft them? Did you know you can press T while holding F to make it automatically hold the button?

I know that all of my personal servers have failed. There were only 2, and one was outcompeted by scripted servers. Can't really beat something that gives everything to the player on a silver platter, can we? They were moderately successful for a time - something that cannot be said for so-called event servers.

Either way, when I talk about ruleless servers I don't mean anything I've done. I'm talking about the first PW servers, the ones that had over a hundred players and not a single admin and and resets every 2-3 hours. Rulelessness is possible, while a locked "event" server that you want simply doesn't work. It's too exclusive. There has never been enough players to support picking a select few for a locked server. And don't act like you're not going to lock it, because then you'll get exactly what I'm arguing for - a ruleless server.

I'm not so sure what you want to change, Erk. I want to see scripts removed and rules cut back. What do you want? If you were going to make a server right now, what would you do?

Every map change should bring a bank reset (new DB) and if you go back to that map you get your old bank.

 

[Splintert]

Easy. I would start a server that comes up 2 times a week for 2 long sessions of PW among people from organized groups.

I would organize those events in a persistent campaign and I would set up a forum for in between sessions.
How would you make people read the forum? You say yourself that hardly anyone does.

I would try to have it hosted by some NW regiment server (or even a number of them rotating) to minimize costs. Ideally for free since they would be supported by those regiments who also play.
How do you prevent said NW group from abusing its access to the server to gain advantages over other players? This is consistently a problem in PW.

If I had it my way, I would introduce some modifications to make it have a medieval feel. Examples would be

- No global chat, no faction chat.
Player isolation, feelings of being alone. Even worse since there probably won't be >100 online anyways.
- No message on kill, if possible.
- No scoreboards by faction, if possible.
To what advantage?
- Name tags disabled by default.
If they're left enable-able then it gives an advantage to those who enable them, thus removing the whole point.
- A good scene that makes some strategic sense, an economy based on scarcity not the current superabundance.
The superabundance is mostly due to gear saving and infinite money. Also, who will make such a map?
- A max number of people by classes and clan from the start of the event (1 knight for every 5 men or whatever).
Excluding players from playing roles is a good way to make them leave.

Locked servers don t work because people want them to be permanently up. There isn´t enough player base for that. But there is overall enough people to fill a server (200 slots) for events. It would just need to be good enough to be appealing.

I don't know all that many people who would find this kind of thing appealing. It limits player options for no real reason other than "medieval feel", isolates them from each other making it harder to create a community, and relies on a community to already exist due to necessity of using the forum. Making everything harder, I believe, is not the way to go about building the community you desire. I won't claim to know how to do so.

If anything, a new server will have to provide instantly superior gameplay on a consistent basis - that means small amounts of work to gain "soldier" status, so they can do what Warband is for. Allowing them to use global chat helps in community building. Relying on a "perfect" map is just a recipe for disaster, see PF, PA, every other Persistent clone.

Quite simply, how do you convince the average guy that this is better? No matter how big of an initial community you start with, it will shed members unless you find a way to convince new people to join.

 

[Erk]

First of all, this would have to be an event with at least 100 people, if not more. Hence no isolation. No magic messaging makes it all a lot more interesting, IMO.

Second, no name tags and no scoreboards so that it is possible to actually hide your affiliation, opening the possibilities for both ambushes (no magic name tags floating), spies (no metagaming if you don´t know the guy). Furthermore, one could actually fake pertinence to a faction if they are disorganized enough (hence no scoreboards).

Regarding the map, this is a rather weak point to bring against such an idea.

And finally, regarding the roles, those would be chosen by the players themselves. But personally I find it more interesting that way.

All in all, a bunch of personal suggestions for a completely different style. I am not surprised you don´t like it. It is clearly not your style. However, do you play NW? Yet it is wildly popular, a lot more than PW. So enough said.

 

[Splintert]

Where are you going to get 100 people who want to play your server?

Believe me, you do not want to remove name tags. PW didn't have name tags once. Nor local chat. Can you imagine how much of a mess it is trying to ID people standing at your gate when you're describing their facial hair from 50 feet?

You may think it's a weak point, but it's one of the most important things if you're going to make a server especially for a specific goal. You have to provide something that doesn't suck, or it will kill it for the majority of your 100 people you're poofing out of nowhere.

NW is not PW, Erk. NW is a battle mode where you spawn, hold W, and click. PW is not. They are completely different.

 

[Erk]

You haven´t played NW, have you.

Local chat is fine, name tags simply immersion breaking. You asked how I would do it, my interpretation of the whole event idea would be in that direction.

Not to be rude, but the fact that you do not like it does not tell me much. We clearly have completely opposite goals.

The question would be whether there is a community to do what I said. Right now, there is not a proper PW community. So it would requite effort, planning, organization, people.

 

[Splintert]

No, I played free NW also known as Mount&Musket. I don't see any relevance.

You'd be surprised how necessary name tags are, especially in the heat of battle where not all armor is heraldic.

My goals are closer to yours than you may believe. Take away your "event" status and your modifications to the mod and boom there you have it.

It would require building a community long before scripts - I don't think anyone will ever be able to get a large group together to play something as old as PW.

 

[Erk]

What you see as problems for me are interesting additions.

If people have issues differencing their own troops, then perhaps they should come up with clever ways to find out who is who. It is not impossible and it is in fact a reality of armies and battles, friendly fire takes its toll even nowadays.  For me, non instant messaging across the server, no autorecognition of people, clans, persistent scores, reputation over repeat matches, organization. Those are my dream additions to the gameplay.

You clearly prefer survival PW. But I have played that, along with everyone else, for a bunch of years. It ends up becoming always the same pointless struggle where nothing really interesting happens most of the time. Truth is, PW is going downhill. Time for something new. Or not, because I think it is obvious that the majority of people aren´t willing to put any effort into it precisely because the mod seems to be slowly dying.

 

[Aldric]

We'll all see each other when Bannerlord or Kingdom Come: Deliverance get released. If I'll have time, of course. Anyway, you and Eragon are alike. The two of you just don't get that I can use different IDs to the same CD key and that is famous unban bug and that's just all. On the other hand I start to run on a bad luck. Thought you can't get banned from your University Network....





...you can.

This made my day
So much old folks talking around here.

Hello by the way Erk Splint and the old Admins crew such as Barradin

And Suspicious, Nov, ect ... (and all i may forget)



Good to see you around. Are you all actually still playing PW ?

 

[Splintert]

Not really. Just been waiting for things to stabilize, looks like they might now with Avalon out of the way.

 

[DrBlacksmith]

We'll all see each other when Bannerlord or Kingdom Come: Deliverance get released. If I'll have time, of course. Anyway, you and Eragon are alike. The two of you just don't get that I can use different IDs to the same CD key and that is famous unban bug and that's just all. On the other hand I start to run on a bad luck. Thought you can't get banned from your University Network....





...you can.

This made my day
So much old folks talking around here.

Hello by the way Erk Splint and the old Admins crew such as Barradin

And Suspicious, Nov, ect ... (and all i may forget)



Good to see you around. Are you all actually still playing PW ?

To an extent. Friends asked me to be the groom at a wedding. Turned sour and we jut killed each other. That was really all the PW I've played in 2-3 months.

 

[The Bowman]

We have always had global chat, even in the earliest versions of PW, and I do confirm that it was (and is) a valuable tool for the community. On the other hand, I see your point: you don't like metagaming and chat spamming. Well, neither do I, but removing the chat is not a solution you'd want to apply. I'd rather have a slightly better community which has the ability understand how PW really works. You have to take in account one important thing: this is a game and people want to have fun. I'm pretty sure that a vast majority of the server population doesn't have the desire to spend hours typing poems just for the sake of RP. As for me, I'd rather encourage a light and mature RP, which could possibly balance the genuine RP-ers and those who just want to have some raw fun.