Post 0.950 - shield and banner designs needed for Muslims and Byzantines

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Nikephoros:

Oh, I understand about that. I guess from my perspective it would help believability if the portrait did not resemble the Boulgaroktonos so closely. I mean the crown and the white beard was a dead give away. But I am exacting in that way.

Great resource there in that article on the Maniakes Expedition, very cool. I was not able to read all of it but enough to bring to mind a question for nijis, if it is not too off topic.

That is, how is the team for BfS planning on representing the presence of crack Imperial regiments in Italy from time to time on the request of the katepanos to Constantinople?

You see one of the really interesting things about the position of katepanos is that unlike most ordinary themata commanders is that not only did he have unparalleled control over his territory, he could also count on receiving direct support form Constantinople in the form of short term expedition by the elite forces of the empire, namely the Spatharioi and the Varangoi.

  Both of these regiments formed the bodyguard of the Emperor and were the elite core of the Roman Army. Of the Varangoi we know that they were also subdivided into a further two regiments, the actual mercenaries from Russia, the Viking homelands, and after the debacles of the late 1060s Anglo-Saxon exiles and the Pelekyphoroi. The Pelekyphoroi were the sons and grandsons of the original mercenaries who had settled down, married Roman women, and had families. There is a popular opinion among historians that if the 4th Crusade had attempted to breach Constantinople at the sector guarded by the Pelekyphoroi there would have been no breach. In the case of Sicily both regiments accompanied Maniakes.

As for the Spatharioi, well they were more of a prestige regiment. A convenient way, if you will, to re-assign old veterans and still allow them to remain in service. Nonetheless they received the best armor in the empire and being veterans that made them both very well spirited and disciplined. They also had the unique privilege of being allowed to incorporate old Hellenic 'add-ons' to their armor. For example under the Komnenoi the Spatharioi wore the horse hail crest and pteryges of the hoplites of old Hellas.

Make no mistake: the presence of these regiments in the Sicilian Theater was very rare and only occurred a few times, but it did happen and I think it would add a sense of dreaded uncertainty for both Muslims and Normans. The Normans in particular dreaded the Varangoi, they were after all the only regiment of the Imperial Army that could defeat them on the field regularly.
 
DISCLAIMER: i know this is not the point of the whole discussion, but you don't always find someone you can talk to about byzantine history details  :mrgreen:

Shogun 144 said:
Nikephoros:

They also had the unique privilege of being allowed to incorporate old Hellenic 'add-ons' to their armor. For example under the Komnenoi the Spatharioi wore the horse hail crest and pteryges of the hoplites of old Hellas.

Are you sure of that?

I mean, Byzantine historians are well known to stuff their histories with hellenistic details, especially regarding troop names, and equipments.
This attachment to the antiquity was strong in almost every aspect of the byzantine "high" culture, which is, byt the way, the main (but not only) source of our knowlegde of the era.
Just think of the quipchaqs named as "schytians", or the egyptian being reffered to as "persians".

If you took the equipment description from a medieval historian (or from a modern one who referred directly to the ancient one), there are high probability it was all intended as a "quote" from some ancient greek chronicle, maybe describing the seleucid army.

If it's from Anna Komnena, then, it's almost sure  :grin:
 
Well I actually found the information from a few places. Including some painted chronicles. I admit dating their appearance with horse hair crests and pteryges to the Komnenoi was a guess on my part. But I couldn't be certain, but to revise my guess I would say my description of their look would date better to the Late Makedonoi to at least the reign of Manouel Komnenos. Again not certain.

But basically the Spatharioi were supposed to have been granted a special privilege to add select 'trinkets' from old Hellas onto their armor. The privilege had been granted to them as perk of seniority within the Imperial Army. This 'charter' had been granted to them by Emperor Iustinianus I, but they saw the most military action under Basileios II. That particular Emperor drew pride from the unit's appearance, since they refused to accept any Western influence to their kit, instead drawing influence from the past and especially the Diadochi of Megas Alexandros.

That answer your question?
 
Not only it answers, but it does it greatly.

Anyway, if i don't go wrong, the dignity of spatharos was some kind of a high court title. For example, Maniakes himself is presented, at a point of his career, as a spatharos (or protospatharos, i'm not sure).

Is the court dignity and the regimental name linked?
Were all the Spatharoi soldiers, actual Spatharoi?
Maybe they were only officers?

I'm only asking because i'm courious.
 
about islamic banners, seal of solomon was very common among turkic emirates(i dont know about saracens though) from 11th to 15th century. also there is a questionable(cross usage?) pic which is also banners of turkic emirates:
image004vi4.gif
 
Artizan -- those are quite interesting. From which source did you get them? I'd like to read a bit more about it.

Regarding the presence of special regiments, I'd like to add them, in principle. However, right now I'm concentrating on getting the new BfS system working with the more feudal (or proto-feudal) organizational structure of the Normans and Sicilian Muslims. I am leaning towards handling the Byzantines a bit anachronistically, at least at first, by giving them a sort of pronoia system. Eventually, I'd like for BfS (and some other mods about which I've been thinking that can use the same architecture) to be able to handle a more centralized imperial system. Regiments sent from Constantinople or the themes would probably fit very well into that architecture. I don't think it will be difficult to do, but I just want to get the initial system up and running first.
 
Those are interesting links. Unfortunately I think that most of the flags are probably either too early (the block color banners) or too late (the crescent I think is Ottoman, and the calligraphy on the Little Big Man banners I think is from a few centuries on). Getting a flag from the right era is not an easy task! I think probably I might go with a simple one-color flag with a religious expression in Kufic script, which I think is the major form of calligraphy used in this period. The Ottoman stuff might work well for one of my later mods, though...

The 8th to 12th century Andalucian names, on the other hand, is a great fit for the mod's setting!
 
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