One guide to kill them all.

[Alavaria]

The whole point of "Key troops" section is to give idea how to utilize reliable resources in best way possible

Yeah prestige.

Sergeants are cheaper in terms of prestige

A lot now, before it was 7 vs 10, but apparently now it's 3 vs 10? I haven't finished grinding all my honor since it's harder now so I haven't confirmed ingame the new cost.

the defense of fresh independent kingdom when pressure will be highest

Huh, guess that's why I do all the equipping and training before hitting the magic button.

sergeants usually are not in good shape by then

Actually now that you point it out, I don't go looking for the magic button until they're like powerdraw 9. People do seem to love rushing it and getting owned then wondering why huh.

If you're massing foot archers then right tactics is much more significant than slightly better at archery than RR troops.

Well you are right there, the 10 (or 9 if they fixed the bug) powerdraw uberarchers you can spam with prestige is a lot better. Sergeants that is.

I've never tried converting like 200 people into ubersergeants, I probably should next time.


Using a non-pendor culture does let you make more use of rescuing or prisoner-converting nobles/squires to use, now that I think about it.

 

[Draz]

5. Companions.
Companions selection, equipment and development.

(Version 3.705 Most companions start at lower levels now which means that you can transform almost all of them into horse archers, and you should - they'll be much more powerful with high pro and noldor bows than with maiden crossbows. Only exceptions are Alyssa with her throwing weapons, Ansen (he'll need a lot of skill points for INT skills) and "sirs" who can spend their skill points for Trainer skill and carry your additional weapons instead of crossbows to save inventory space.)

Does this go for ALL the knights, or just the ones in your permanent party? Other than Rayne, they're all pretty high level and already have some points in Trainer - getting enough INT to be able to
invest any more would require quite a few level-ups. How many levels can you realistically expect them to have, provided they're with you all the way from early game?

 

[placenik]

5. Companions.
Companions selection, equipment and development.

(Version 3.705 Most companions start at lower levels now which means that you can transform almost all of them into horse archers, and you should - they'll be much more powerful with high pro and noldor bows than with maiden crossbows. Only exceptions are Alyssa with her throwing weapons, Ansen (he'll need a lot of skill points for INT skills) and "sirs" who can spend their skill points for Trainer skill and carry your additional weapons instead of crossbows to save inventory space.)

Does this go for ALL the knights, or just the ones in your permanent party? Other than Rayne, they're all pretty high level and already have some points in Trainer - getting enough INT to be able to
invest any more would require quite a few level-ups. How many levels can you realistically expect them to have, provided they're with you all the way from early game?

I usually target lvl40 as maximum realistic for companions.
BTW, is horse archer AI still broken as in native WB?

 

[sher]

5. Companions.
Companions selection, equipment and development.

(Version 3.705 Most companions start at lower levels now which means that you can transform almost all of them into horse archers, and you should - they'll be much more powerful with high pro and noldor bows than with maiden crossbows. Only exceptions are Alyssa with her throwing weapons, Ansen (he'll need a lot of skill points for INT skills) and "sirs" who can spend their skill points for Trainer skill and carry your additional weapons instead of crossbows to save inventory space.)

Does this go for ALL the knights, or just the ones in your permanent party? Other than Rayne, they're all pretty high level and already have some points in Trainer - getting enough INT to be able to
invest any more would require quite a few level-ups. How many levels can you realistically expect them to have, provided they're with you all the way from early game?

Sirs have good AGI skills and very high pros so there's no sense at all in investing in it. Investing in STR to 30 will only give an option to wear noldor armors and have 1 additional point in Power Strike. So there's really no question that they should invest in INT to maximize Trainer and have extra skill points to spend on Power Strike and such.

Usually Roland is investing in INT to have Trainer and Power Strike maximized, then he can invest in STR to 30. He carries my second lance (blunt\pierce) and halberd instead of ranged weapon (his Polearms pro is higher than Jocelyn's).
Jocelyn is investing in STR to 30 (he's already at maximum Trainer), then in INT to have extra skill points. He carries my siege crossbow and bolts, just in case (his Crossbows pro is higher than Roland's).
Rayne is Agility guy and future CKO trainer (he will be real beast of a knight).
Alistair can follow Jocelyn path, even become horse archer, though with such high pro crossbows rate of fire is pretty decent to leave bows alone and use skill points on something else.

I'd say level 40 is not impossible at all with right setups, though it's a ~1000 days or more. It all depends on how you play, what types of battles and how frequently they occur.

 

[thermocline]

5. Companions.
Companions selection, equipment and development.

(Version 3.705 Most companions start at lower levels now which means that you can transform almost all of them into horse archers, and you should - they'll be much more powerful with high pro and noldor bows than with maiden crossbows. Only exceptions are Alyssa with her throwing weapons, Ansen (he'll need a lot of skill points for INT skills) and "sirs" who can spend their skill points for Trainer skill and carry your additional weapons instead of crossbows to save inventory space.)

Does this go for ALL the knights, or just the ones in your permanent party? Other than Rayne, they're all pretty high level and already have some points in Trainer - getting enough INT to be able to
invest any more would require quite a few level-ups. How many levels can you realistically expect them to have, provided they're with you all the way from early game?

In 3.7, an infinite amount. I've only played one character for a long time this patch (in 3.702) and I spent 6 Qualis gems on dust by day 600. Leth had trainer 5, all of the knights had strength over 30, and even Ansen was able to equip some better armor.

Basically, much of the companion development strategy needs to be rethought in this patch because companions effectively have no growth limits anymore. If you have all 20 companions in your party, one Qualis gem is worth up to 60 attribute points, theoretically. On average, every 3 Qualis gems you spend, each companion will get 1 point to each stat and +15 WPF. This makes raising Int on some levelups more viable to fill out combat skills, and you can push weapon proficiencies very high on Leth and the knights for CKO training.

 

[Draz]

@sher:

Thanks, that does make perfect sense. I've played PoP many times over the years and never quite made it to the victory screen, so hopefully this time will be different - which should give the companions plenty of time to get mighty!


Good call about the new Qualis options too, I didn't even realize they existed before I went to visit Finneas. First few will obviously go to empowering yours truly, but after that I'll definitely have to weigh my options as to how to make the most of them.

 

[sher]

First few will obviously go to empowering yours truly, but after that I'll definitely have to weigh my options as to how to make the most of them.

I wouldn't waste gems on dust.

 

[placenik]

First few will obviously go to empowering yours truly, but after that I'll definitely have to weigh my options as to how to make the most of them.

I wouldn't waste gems on dust.

It ain't waste if you do it only on 1 companion and make him CKO training machine.

 

[Raviollius]

You don't get to pick which companion is affected by dust - everyone who is with you gains a random bonus.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

You have to choose very wisely now on which potions to use from Finneas since you can only use 3 in total before the effects are halved.

I think the Potion of Janos is a bit underpowered since it gives only 2 points in INT compared to the Elixir of Arkon which gives you 6 attribute points plus WPF boost, but after you reach level 40, its probably your only source of new skill points. I just wish it was more potent. Like 3 or 4 points instead of just 2

The Dust is interesting because it boosts all of your companions. Its tempting to spend a couple gems on it just to try and get Lethaldiran's training up to 4 and boost the Sirs' WPFs higher for CKO training, though it would probably take a lot of save scumming to get just the right combination of effects on everyone. I'd also try hire every possible companion before using it just to maximise the effect

 

[sher]

Companions gain stats on their own just fine, only "problem" is high level companions Trainer skill if you want to train CKO faster or get more troops from level 35+ troops. But for 1 gem you'll get 33% chance to get +1 INT which is 3 gems for 1 INT. For me it's a waste.

Dust may be tempting at first glance but you will affect your gameplay much more by spending gems elsewhere. And for a long time you don't have gems to spare anyway.

The only thing I can think of is when you are so late in the game that you have nothing to do with gems, all your other CKO trainers had their way with CKO and you're preparing Lethaldiran for final push - then you'll get additional weapon pros for him along higher Trainer skill. But such situation is very hypothetical, for real maniacs who can play 2000-3000+ days games.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Companions gain stats on their own just fine, only "problem" is high level companions Trainer skill if you want to train CKO faster or get more troops from level 35+ troops. But for 1 gem you'll get 33% chance to get +1 INT which is 3 gems for 1 INT. For me it's a waste.

Dust may be tempting at first glance but you will affect your gameplay much more by spending gems elsewhere. And for a long time you don't have gems to spare anyway.

Its +2 INT, unless you've already used 3 potions. But you're right that its probably not the best use of a gem. I like that they gave us the new potions, but its really hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck that the original Elixir gives you

 

[sher]

Its +2 INT, unless you've already used 3 potions. But you're right that its probably not the best use of a gem. I like that they gave us the new potions, but its really hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck that the original Elixir gives you

Not only elixirs. Elixirs just allow you to be a good warrior if you follow leadership path. Shop is a very good boost now, kick ass gem weapons (two hander and axe) are very nice addition to spice things up, CKO chapters... Gems are always needed and spend them to get slightly faster trainig of CKO by one particular companion in very distant future or faster training of some 40+ level troops that you may not need at all... These effects are very minor, they're mostly in player's head if he's a munchkin.

 

[Lord Irontoe]

Its +2 INT, unless you've already used 3 potions. But you're right that its probably not the best use of a gem. I like that they gave us the new potions, but its really hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck that the original Elixir gives you

Not only elixirs. Elixirs just allow you to be a good warrior if you follow leadership path. Shop is a very good boost now, kick ass gem weapons (two hander and axe) are very nice addition to spice things up, CKO chapters... Gems are always needed and spend them to get slightly faster trainig of CKO by one particular companion in very distant future or faster training of some 40+ level troops that you may not need at all... These effects are very minor, they're mostly in player's head if he's a munchkin.

Well, its a cost-benefit thing. One could argue that faster access to a fully trained up CKO will make it much easier to get more Qualis Gems in the future

 

[thermocline]

Companions gain stats on their own just fine, only "problem" is high level companions Trainer skill if you want to train CKO faster or get more troops from level 35+ troops. But for 1 gem you'll get 33% chance to get +1 INT which is 3 gems for 1 INT. For me it's a waste.

Dust may be tempting at first glance but you will affect your gameplay much more by spending gems elsewhere. And for a long time you don't have gems to spare anyway.

The only thing I can think of is when you are so late in the game that you have nothing to do with gems, all your other CKO trainers had their way with CKO and you're preparing Lethaldiran for final push - then you'll get additional weapon pros for him along higher Trainer skill. But such situation is very hypothetical, for real maniacs who can play 2000-3000+ days games.

I disagree with most of this post.

1 gem is not a 33% chance of getting 1 int. It's a 33% chance of getting 1 int on a specific character, but you may have 15+ companions in your party including Leth and several knights, and EACH USE OF DUST APPLIES TO EVERY COMPANION YOU HAVE. It is tremendous value. If you have Leth, Boadice, Jocelyn, and Roland, that's a good chance that at least 1 of them will gain int and another will gain WPF. And even more str/agi on Leth is not useless, as he'll be used to train your CKO and they will have that much higher str/agility. Moreover, str/agi boosts definitely help the growth of your lower companions as well.

I also disagree with it being a late-game splurge. As I said above, I played a character in 3.705 up to about 600 days and was able to spare 6 gems on companion boosts. My main PC was already fully developed with 27+ stats, a ruby sword, and a sapphire bow. The only thing I didn't do was use a gem for Quigfen's shop, but then I didn't savescum any Noldor tournaments for extra gems either. Remember that spawns are more common in 3.7--not only did SD increase the spawn rate, but you can choose bard background and ask for rumors more often as well. Qualis gems are more plentiful than they were before.

edit--I should also mention this is the first time I've really used CKOs. SD reduced the equipment upgrade times in 3.7 so they come online much faster, at least in terms of gear. You'll find that a kitted knight in basic gear--gauntlets, plate mail, +35 boots, and a +56 helm with doom mace and some basic shield--will be ready pretty fast, but their stats won't be up to par with regular knighthood order units by the time their equipment is ready. That's why boosting the int/stats/wpf on the key training companions is so valuable--you need them to be more effective in order to keep up with the equipment gearing speed if you actually want to use your CKOs early on.

 

[sher]

1 gem is not a 33% chance of getting 1 int. It's a 33% chance of getting 1 int on a specific character, but you may have 15+ companions in your party including Leth and several knights, and EACH USE OF DUST APPLIES TO EVERY COMPANION YOU HAVE. It is tremendous value.

Only on paper. In real life it's not.

I'm at day 163. Spend 3 gems on elexirs for myself (18,18,30+,15 now) and one on shop (best horse, best nonunique bow, best shields, Tempered Runed Bastard Sword, best universal combat armor later at 21 STR and best armors if I'll decide to spend gold on them). My constant companions are at level 20 minimum and have Trainer maximized (4-5 value), they are 18 STR/AGI fighters (only Leslie has ~15) with good combat skills and Horse Archery. In a few levels I (my companions) will be able to mass train most of the top tier troops for my army. Spending gems on companions boost at this point will give me nothing except delay in my personal progression towards own kingdom and maximized Leadership skill. I have to spend 9 gems for only 1 additional Trainer skill when most of level 20 troops will be trained during night anyway - I have better things to do.

First CKO trainer will be Alistair (temporary companion) - he has Trainer 6 and all skills CKO needs, except Archery, which will be trained by another companion (Ediz, also temporary) later (and I use bows with sergeants only, even them do not require it).

 

[sher]

Summary changes of latest release call for significant modifications of this guide (it's still perfectly usable) for more accurate details (only after final patch naturally) so I'm considering how it's best to be executed. What I'm planning besides adding and modifying info is to get rid of version remarks in material so all will be actual for version mentioned in beginning. Should I leave old version available until full completion of actualized guide?

Another concern is limitation of one post length by 40K characters - some sections are already exceeding that amount but logically they should not be divided. And I have no convenient backup of this guide though I can store html pages and parse them later if I ever need this in case of emergency but you cannot save it as plain text and search with simplest tools if you ever need this. I really like how it looks and structured with this forum tags though.

So if readers have opinions on such matters, please share them with me to help me make decision convenient for more people than only me.

 

[Titanjones]

Summary changes of latest release call for significant modifications of this guide (it's still perfectly usable) for more accurate details (only after final patch naturally) so I'm considering how it's best to be executed. What I'm planning besides adding and modifying info is to get rid of version remarks in material so all will be actual for version mentioned in beginning. Should I leave old version available until full completion of actualized guide?

Another concern is limitation of one post length by 40K characters - some sections are already exceeding that amount but logically they should not be divided. And I have no convenient backup of this guide though I can store html pages and parse them later if I ever need this in case of emergency but you cannot save it as plain text and search with simplest tools if you ever need this. I really like how it looks and structured with this forum tags though.

So if readers have opinions on such matters, please share them with me to help me make decision convenient for more people than only me.

The "version" annotation I think is not needed. It'd be less confusing to just have it updated to the most  recent version for each section.

 

[StopGamer]

Summary changes of latest release call for significant modifications of this guide (it's still perfectly usable) for more accurate details (only after final patch naturally) so I'm considering how it's best to be executed. What I'm planning besides adding and modifying info is to get rid of version remarks in material so all will be actual for version mentioned in beginning. Should I leave old version available until full completion of actualized guide?

Another concern is limitation of one post length by 40K characters - some sections are already exceeding that amount but logically they should not be divided. And I have no convenient backup of this guide though I can store html pages and parse them later if I ever need this in case of emergency but you cannot save it as plain text and search with simplest tools if you ever need this. I really like how it looks and structured with this forum tags though.

So if readers have opinions on such matters, please share them with me to help me make decision convenient for more people than only me.

No version needed, just use up to date.
You can use "print" button to get all as plain text. But other comments create a mess. Whats a pity that you cant put whole up to date guide into first page. Maybe add a link to read only google docs somewhere?

 

[GIL]

TY Sher, I used your guide a lot for character creation and development