Native Is Dying?

[Alex_C]

You also discuss talent, which is in essence an innate ability at a particular task. So where does this natural ability come from? Is it God-given? Are you some kind of Warband-messiah? Or do you have the Warband-gene? The only natural ability which I can see affecting game-play of Warband is reaction-speed, which, due to the relatively slow pace of the game, is something which unless you have an exceptionally low level of, won't make much of a difference.

Some people are just talented at video games, believe it or not.

The question I was asking of you, but to which you have not offered an answer, is of what does this talent consist?

 

[JackBaldy]

The question I was asking of you, but to which you have not offered an answer, is of what does this talent consist?

Could be a number of things. From reflexes, reaction time, visual awareness, audio awareness, execution, brain functions (The ability to know what to do, properly execute it or properly react to something fairly quickly in any given scenario under any given pressure), the ability to read opponents, perseverance through adversity and pressure, good aim in any scenario (Not just archery scenarios), etc.

 

[Ischenous]

Another would be abillity to pick things up quickly. Some people just can't.

Why did I mention cRPG. Why.

 

[Hamelech]

Reading the rest of my post might help you see how I came to the conclusion.

I did, and I didn't particularly agree with it. Honestly, this whole argument is reminiscent of raging players calling other players no lifes when they get destroyed in a video game. Ironically enough, the raging player has spent more time playing said video game. Ain't that something?

Its got nothing to do with having no life. Of course I play a lot of this game, I love it (both native for the duelling and cRPG for everything else). I'm not trying to say that people who play a lot have no life - I don't particularly care how they choose to spend their time.

I got destroyed a lot in WB when I started playing. I only started getting good when I started practising (playing a lot). Since I haven't spent much time playing recently, when I play again, I'll probably be terrible due to lack of practice.
But I don't think I would be good after I play again because of some innate ability or talent at pressing buttons. Its just learning the mechanics, and then practising them until they're done instinctively, not consciously (though of course you have to pay attention in case of a surprise by your opponent).

I'm also not saying that practise somehow invalidates another player's ability to beat me in a duel. If anything, it makes me respect the time and patience they've put in.
In my experience it tends to be the people who believe that there is some kind of talent involved that end up raging: 'he shouldn't have beaten me, I'm more talented, he just practised more/got better gear, and I wasn't even concentrating etc etc'.

 

[JackBaldy]

Its got nothing to do with having no life.

I get the feeling that you don't know what reminiscent means.

In my experience it tends to be the people who believe that there is some kind of talent involved that end up raging: 'he shouldn't have beaten me, I'm more talented, he just practised more/got better gear, and I wasn't even concentrating etc etc'.

That sounds more like egotistical players to me.

I'm also not saying that practise somehow invalidates another player's ability to beat me in a duel. If anything, it makes me respect the time and patience they've put in.

That's funny because you could have very easily put in more time and patience than the person who you beat you. Never thought of that possibility, hmm?

 

[Alex_C]

Could be a number of things. From reflexes, reaction time, visual awareness, audio awareness, execution, brain functions (The ability to know what to do, properly execute it or properly react to something fairly quickly in any given scenario under any given pressure), the ability to read opponents, perseverance through adversity and pressure, good aim in any scenario (Not just archery scenarios), etc.

Reflexes: as already mentioned, unless you're amazingly sub-normal in terms of reflexes, the slow pace of this game will mean that these make little difference.

Reaction time: as above.

Visual awareness: not quite sure what you mean by this, I guess the quality of your eye-sight. Again, unless it's amazingly sub-normal, not much difference will be made.

Audio awareness: see above.

Execution: have no idea what you mean by that, pray enlighten me.

The ability to know what to do: well, this is of course learnt. The first time you play the game, there's no way you'd know that you need to spam against a hammer's overheads or w/e.

Properly execute it or properly react to something fairly quickly in any given scenario under any given pressure: I believe this fits under reflexes and reaction time above.

The ability to read opponents: again, this is learnt. The game isn't complex enough to have any of the body-language cues which in real life would allow us to 'read' other people and predict their next course of action.

Perseverance through adversity and pressure: yes, I suppose if you're rage-quitting like mad every time you die, you won't get much better, but then you also won't have that much play-time racked up.

Good aim in any scenario: as in long term goals? I don't really understand fully what you mean by this one I'm afraid.

 

[Hamelech]

I get the feeling that you don't know what reminiscent means.

Ok, on that note, I'm going to stop discussing this with you, it's obviously not going anywhere

But thanks for your fascinating replies nonetheless!

 

[JackBaldy]

The ability to know what to do: well, this is of course learnt. The first time you play the game, there's no way you'd know that you need to spam against a hammer's overheads or w/e.

It's what I like to call the talent of being able to put everything together so fluidly and flawlessly. Some people can. Some people can't. Some people may have the tools in their arsenal (separately), but they lack the talent to string them together for success.

Execution: have no idea what you mean by that, pray enlighten me.

Some people are more talented at executing certain techniques than others. Like reacting and properly executing a block. Some people are just more talented at doing that than others in my opinion. Some people will never reach point C no matter how hard they try or how long they practice simply because they lack the talent to do so.

Reflexes: as already mentioned, unless you're amazingly sub-normal in terms of reflexes, the slow pace of this game will mean that these make little difference.

Reaction time: as above.

Visual awareness: not quite sure what you mean by this, I guess the quality of your eye-sight. Again, unless it's amazingly sub-normal, not much difference will be made.

Audio awareness: see above.

Lets agree to disagree.

Perseverance through adversity and pressure: yes, I suppose if you're rage-quitting like mad every time you die, you won't get much better, but then you also won't have that much play-time racked up.

It's not about rage quits, it's more so about performing well under pressure and adversity. I say that it takes talent. Just my opinion of course. Being a consistent clutch player is an example of that. Some people just crack under the pressure though.

Good aim in any scenario: as in long term goals? I don't really understand fully what you mean by this one I'm afraid.

Usage of the mouse is very important in Warband, believe it or not. Some people are more talented at controlling their aim than others. Think about first person shooters, just not as severe.

Another would be abillity to pick things up quickly. Some people just can't.

That's one you missed, Alex. (As did I)

 

[Laszlo]

Alex_C,

According to your formula:

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

Then two players with equal computers, equal internet connection, and equal amount of time spent playing/practising warband; you believe those two are of equal skill?

That if they duelled one another it would mostly end up with tied scores? That a recruiting clan would flip a coin to decide who to let into their ranks?

 

[Alex_C]

Then two players with equal computers, equal internet connection, and equal amount of time spent playing/practising warband; you believe those two are of equal skill?

That if they duelled one another it would mostly end up with tied scores? That a recruiting clan would flip a coin to decide who to let into their ranks?

In this hypothetical situation, I'd imagine other minor factors would begin to come into affect, such as whether they were feeling down that day, whether one might be ill, whether one player might be psyched out by the duel or w/e, whether one player gets bored quickly, that sort of thing. But yes, I'd say that they'd most likely be of pretty much equal skill.

It's what I like to call the talent of being able to put everything together so fluidly and flawlessly. Some people can. Some people can't. Some people may have the tools in their arsenal (separately), but they lack the talent to string them together for success.

That hasn't really explained it, it seems to just be rather wishy-washy rhetoric.

Some people are more talented at executing certain techniques than others. Like reacting and properly executing a block. Some people are just more talented at doing that than others in my opinion.

Again, this seems like an extremely vague, wishy-washy explanation. You seem to just be talking about reaction speed and reflexes again.

It's not about rage quits, it's more so about performing well under pressure and adversity. I say that it takes talent. Just my opinion of course.

I don't really get that, I've never felt any real pressure or adversity when playing video games, maybe others do though.

Usage of the mouse is very important in Warband, believe it or not. Some people are more talented at controlling their aim than others. Think about first person shooters, just not as severe.

And people were born more able to use the mouse? Of course not, those people who are better at it will be so because they've spent more time playing video games (or w/e) which require them to be.

Another would be abillity to pick things up quickly. Some people just can't.

As Hamalech mentioned, Warband's a relatively simple system. Unless someone's especially sub-normal in their ability to pick things up, this won't make much difference.

###EDIT###

Mistakenly attributed post to JackBaldy, rather than Ischenous.

 

[JackBaldy]

That hasn't really explained it, it seems to just be rather wishy-washy rhetoric.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Again, this seems like an extremely vague, wishy-washy explanation. You seem to just be talking about reaction speed and reflexes again.

How many times have you heard someone say "Oh my God I meant to block right" or "I blocked up what the fudge!"? That's mostly due to improper execution. The reaction time was there, as they reacted by blocking. However, they executed the block incorrectly henceforth leading to getting hit. Personally, I think some people are more talented at execution than others. You may disagree, but that's how I feel.

I don't really get that, I've never felt any real pressure or adversity when playing video games, maybe others do though.

Congrats to you Alex. You're super pro! I bet you clutch 1 versus 9001 all the time.

And people were born more able to use the mouse? Of course not, those people who are better at it will be so because they've spent more time playing video games (or w/e) which require them to be.

Not necessarily. Why is it so hard to believe that some people are naturally more talented at using a mouse? Some people just have terrible aim even though they've spent God knows how many hours using a mouse. I'm in the group that thinks that they lack the talent.

As Hamalech mentioned, Warband's a relatively simple system. Unless someone's especially sub-normal in their ability to pick things up, this won't make much difference.

Go tell that to all the scrubs that play on the siege servers.

 

[Alex_C]

How many times have you heard someone say "Oh my God I meant to block right" or "I blocked up what the fudge!"? That's mostly due to improper execution. The reaction time was there, as they reacted by blocking. However, they executed the block incorrectly henceforth leading to getting hit. Personally, I think some people are more talented at execution than others. You may disagree, but that's how I feel.

I'd personally say that this is again to do with reactions. They've gotten pressing right mouse button when the enemy attacks firmly into their muscle-memory, but have not yet perfected the reflex to press right mouse button and move it in the right direction.

Congrats to you Alex. You're super pro! I bet you clutch 1 versus 9001 all the time.

I wasn't saying that I beat people in such ridiculous circumstances, merely that I don't really feel any pressure. If you die, it doesn't have any real consequences for you.

Not necessarily. Why is it so hard to believe that some people are naturally more talented at using a mouse? Some people just have terrible aim even though they've spent God knows how many hours using a mouse. I'm in the group that thinks that they lack the talent.

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and argue from a basis of scientific method and empiricism here. Why would people possibly have evolved a natural predisposition towards being able to use a mouse (something which doesn't occur in nature, asides from its furrier namesake)?

 

[JackBaldy]

I'd personally say that this is again to do with reactions. They've gotten pressing right mouse button when the enemy attacks firmly into their muscle-memory, but have not yet perfected the reflex to press right mouse button and move it in the right direction.

In that scenario, you're right, reflex does play a bigger role. I'd say execution and certain reflexes go hand in hand, but then I'd just be diving into semantics.

I wasn't saying that I beat people in such ridiculous circumstances, merely that I don't really feel any pressure. If you die, it doesn't have any real consequences for you.

You may not feel the pressure, but it's definitely there in my opinion. However, considering you don't feel it, I'd say that you might be naturally talented at alleviating pressure to the point that it's not there. Congrats to you.

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and argue from a basis of scientific method and empiricism here. Why would people possibly have evolved a natural predisposition towards being able to use a mouse (something which doesn't occur in nature, asides from its furrier namesake)?

Why are some people more talented at drawing than others? Why are some people more talented at singing? Using musical instruments? Acting? It's a mystery. 

 

[MadocComadrin]

Go tell that to all the scrubs that play on the siege servers.

Why don't you go to a siege server and see just how "Scrubby" some of the players there are. You'd be surprised; we cater to both the casual and the hardcore.

 

[JackBaldy]

Why don't you go to a siege server and see just how "Scrubby" some of the players there are. You'd be surprised; we cater to both the casual and the hardcore.

Lets pretend like I've never played in siege servers. Just because you don't "see" me doesn't mean I'm not there. You'd be surprised. 

PS.
I didn't even mention GK siege servers by name, yet you still showed signs of heavy sensitivity. I'm not sure why you take such offense either way. GK siege servers are heavily populated most of the time, it just so happens that a lot of the population are high pinging cannon fodder or just people that are cannon fodder without the help of high ping. So what? I'm not saying EVERYONE that plays there is bad, so don't take offense if you thought that's what I was saying. Majority are though, in my opinion.

 

[Laszlo]

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and argue from a basis of scientific method and empiricism here. Why would people possibly have evolved a natural predisposition towards being able to use a mouse (something which doesn't occur in nature, asides from its furrier namesake)?

Basketballs and motor vehicles don't occur in nature either. Yet some people are naturally better at using them than others.

 

[Rhade]

Yeah I honestly hate cRPG with a passion, native mp is skill based and requires thought and timing and footwork. cRPG is basically "Hey, I spent weeks and weeks grinding and making this character because I don't have a job, family or friends so I'm going to just stomp on you with back and forth spam because I can 1 hit you"

I believe someone's pointed this out before, but this argument is a little silly.

Being a 'top-player' in native is essentially: time spent (practice) + hardware + internet connection.

Being a 'top-player' in cRPG is essentially: time spent (getting equipment) + hardware + internet connection.

I really don't get the difference?

Wow. I'm amazed.

The difference is that to be a 'top-player' in native, it's not "time spent (practice)", it's SKILL that comes into play, no player has an advantage over any other player when the match starts. In cRPG, players have advantages over other players as SOON as the match starts.

You can continue to give yourself the illusion that time != skill, while I'll continue to tell you that you fail.

Oh wow, it is easy to make statements without any actual basis, then proceed to insult the opposition in a way which pertains not to their argument.

But hey, the fact that I haven't prior to this post heard of you, or seen you on any servers suggests to me that you're not one of the top-players to which I was referring anyway.

While it wasn't said to me, I definitely can say that I've seen players who have been playing regularly since the beta, and they are still rather horrible players. Me myself, after playing for a two week period, there really weren't that many players who could reliably beat me regularly. The point that he was making was that this happens, and that in Native, while practice helps, Native allows the skilled players to shine, where cRPG's time spent presents a gear reward so EVERYONE advances, even if they're bad. It's an artificial crutch.

 

[MadocComadrin]

On this count, Rhade and I agree.

 

[chadz]

... where cRPG's time spent presents a gear reward so EVERYONE advances, even if they're bad. It's an artificial crutch.

cRPG doesn't work like that. You get a lot of money while playing, you can afford the highest tier equipment within a few hours. The balancing part is that your equipment decays again when using it. If you want to wear good equipment all of the time, grinding won't bring you anywhere (due to decay), the only thing that works is winning rounds again and again (there is a multiplier that multiplies your income, going from 1 to 5, if you won a round it increases by 1, if you lose on it drops to 1 again). I'm not saying that this is something you have to know - but if you argue about a subject, it doesn't hurt to understand the basics first.

 

[Rhade]

... where cRPG's time spent presents a gear reward so EVERYONE advances, even if they're bad. It's an artificial crutch.

cRPG doesn't work like that. You get a lot of money while playing, you can afford the highest tier equipment within a few hours. The balancing part is that your equipment decays again when using it. If you want to wear good equipment all of the time, grinding won't bring you anywhere (due to decay), the only thing that works is winning rounds again and again (there is a multiplier that multiplies your income, going from 1 to 5, if you won a round it increases by 1, if you lose on it drops to 1 again). I'm not saying that this is something you have to know - but if you argue about a subject, it doesn't hurt to understand the basics first.

The basics that are, as you said, that people are allowed to have gear that is superior to others, and they can keep said gear from decaying by logging hours? I think I understand it the basics. To each their own, but I think we can agree that an artificial crutch that is independent of skill is present in cRPG. I'm not downplaying your mod, your efforts or your contribution to the community, I'm just saying I personally feel that an FPS should be just that -- an fps. I don't like stats/gear muddying the waters.