MP Multiplayer Class System

[578]

Making a game boring is not a vision, its running to the ground. They are too stubborn to admit mistakes, no surprise I guess, but reviews will show. With the recent popularity of games like Mordhau  and also Chivalry 2 coming, people woke up to medieval multiplayer games and will certainly be drawn to Bannerlord at some point like many who love the game already. And they will get dissapointed, because the class system is by far the most cancerous aspect of the beta along with how infantry plays out. This feels more like a Kings of Men and War of the roses mix than mount and blade. I am optimistic that combat itself might get fixed, but if classes do not change at the core (not removal of the system but overhauled with actual useful classes) then the game won't really stay populated. Regardless, mods will come and fix TW's mess.

 

[grimsight]

In many areas of multiplayer the gameplay has been reimagined/reworked from ground up rather than built upon from Warband. Class system, new competitive gamemode, drastic combat changes, just to name a few... a worrying trend. I think TaleWorlds has the wrong impression of why Warbands multiplayer couldn't reach a larger audience. They are tackling the wrong issues and have ended up making a game that does not resemble the Warband that we know. Maybe they feel they can do things better but I don't think it's working out so far. The devs need to go back to Warband and rediscover why that game was great.

 

[Scarf Ace]

In many areas of multiplayer the gameplay has been reimagined/reworked from ground up rather than built upon from Warband. Class system, new competitive gamemode, drastic combat changes, just to name a few... a worrying trend. I think TaleWorlds has the wrong impression of why Warbands multiplayer couldn't reach a larger audience. They are tackling the wrong issues and have ended up making a game that does not resemble the Warband that we know. Maybe they feel they can do things better but I don't think it's working out so far. The devs need to go back to Warband and rediscover why that game was great.

Warband's MP is a massive success. It's got an active community after all these years with loads of mods, maps and everything. If we consider the age, visuals, production values and so on, it really can't get much more successful than this. It's outlasted other games in the genre like Chivalry and WotR, it's doing great alongside Mordhau, and if they screw this up bad enough, it might even outdo Bannerlord.

Never in all these years, with any of the people (must've been around 10) I introduced to Warband MP, did anyone ever say that it's not accessible, or imbalanced, or anything like that. It's wonderfully straightforward.
I think that some galaxy brain on the dev team thinks that a silly game about spearing people needs to be a huge e-sport (hence all the "balancing" and limitations), and the people who actually play the predecessor competitively somehow got everything wrong in his opinion.
Alternatively they focus grouped it with some Valve-tier playtesters (i.e. straight up idiots) who probably can't grasp directional parrying anyway and so they decided picking gear the normal way is too complicated.

 

[grimsight]

In many areas of multiplayer the gameplay has been reimagined/reworked from ground up rather than built upon from Warband. Class system, new competitive gamemode, drastic combat changes, just to name a few... a worrying trend. I think TaleWorlds has the wrong impression of why Warbands multiplayer couldn't reach a larger audience. They are tackling the wrong issues and have ended up making a game that does not resemble the Warband that we know. Maybe they feel they can do things better but I don't think it's working out so far. The devs need to go back to Warband and rediscover why that game was great.

Warband's MP is a massive success. It's got an active community after all these years with loads of mods, maps and everything. If we consider the age, visuals, production values and so on, it really can't get much more successful than this. It's outlasted other games in the genre like Chivalry and WotR, it's doing great alongside Mordhau, and if they screw this up bad enough, it might even outdo Bannerlord.

Never in all these years, with any of the people (must've been around 10) I introduced to Warband MP, did anyone ever say that it's not accessible, or imbalanced, or anything like that. It's wonderfully straightforward.
I think that some galaxy brain on the dev team thinks that a silly game about spearing people needs to be a huge e-sport (hence all the "balancing" and limitations), and the people who actually play the predecessor competitively somehow got everything wrong in his opinion.
Alternatively they focus grouped it with some Valve-tier playtesters (i.e. straight up idiots) who probably can't grasp directional parrying anyway and so they decided picking gear the normal way is too complicated.

We are in agreement, Warband MP has stood the test of time and is a huge success. That being said there is still a lot of potential to grow the competitive scene. When the average competitive player has 5k+ hours, and there are tournaments with cash prizes in the thousands, something is going right. Competitive play certainly was not accessible though..

That said, yes, the game doesn't have to be a huge e-sport. But there is a competitive foundation that the Warband community has laid for TaleWorlds which could be easily capitalized on for some level of growth. The main thing needed is matchmaking which they are providing. However all the large system changes such as the class system are not desired by the competitive community at all, so don't get the wrong impression that we are in favour of these things. In most areas competitive and casual players see eye to eye.

 

[578]

@Grimsight, the thing is that Warband had no chance of being an e-sport because it was old as hell. The visuals, the animations, everything. Bannerlord, in structure, won't be an esport because Skirmish is bad, classes are not fleshed out, there's no class limits and currently, cavalry hard carries everything. Infantry fights are horrible and they take too long, sometimes you need to hit someone 6 times for him to die. And it does not satisfy the player at all because there's no weight. There are countless problems at the moment in the beta and mostly they're infantry based.

 

[Dest45]

I used to select the lowest shirt and remove the helmet. That’s how I liked to play. Let the skill shine over the gear and heroes don’t wear helmets.

You could recognize players by the attire they wore, faces and hair etc. seems like a lot of that was done away with

 

[HUMMAN]

One thing devs wont mention is if they return back to Warbands system, other people will still say MP is not changed at all Bannerlord is a reskin; and its not certain it will be successful as there're no new features. So they want to move on and stop redesigning forever, it's frustrating for a 8 year development process. But as people claim or players who played expressing that game may not be fun. Making a fun game mode is hard, i would even say that it's no really possible for devs to figure it out. Thinking works in paper, but gameplay is different. I'm sure their intended captain mode has now tons have negatives (AI cant be competitive, they wanted the mode so players can select bots after dying hey but guess what thats almost an exploit so i think they removed it)  People who play the game eventually find out best modes and create them. Top 3 games played in steam are genres not created by devs, but by rather simple users and started as mods. (DOTA, Counter Strike, Battle Royale) This should tell something. Honestly making MP only a platform for casual games with high modularility would create some popular game mods after a period of time, and they can be competitive afterwards. If a game is popular, it can be competitive (look at heartstone or fortnite), balance comes afterwards. 

 

[Younes]

One thing devs wont mention is if they return back to Warbands system, other people will still say MP is not changed at all Bannerlord is a reskin; and its not certain it will be successful as there're no new features. So they want to move on and stop redesigning forever, it's frustrating for a 8 year development process. But as people claim or players who played expressing that game may not be fun. Making a fun game mode is hard, i would even say that it's no really possible for devs to figure it out. Thinking works in paper, but gameplay is different. I'm sure their intended captain mode has now tons have negatives (AI cant be competitive, they wanted the mode so players can select bots after dying hey but guess what thats almost an exploit so i think they removed it)  People who play the game eventually find out best modes and create them. Top 3 games played in steam are genres not created by devs, but by rather simple users and started as mods. (DOTA, Counter Strike, Battle Royale) This should tell something. Honestly making MP only a platform for casual games with high modularility would create some popular game mods after a period of time, and they can be competitive afterwards. If a game is popular, it can be competitive (look at heartstone or fortnite), balance comes afterwards. 

I think current players don't care if the multiplayer changes as long as it does not contradict the core gameplay that warband was. Yes there is customization in what taleworld system is offering but its 99% less then what warband has and that's the problem.

Not to mention the weird mechanics they have implemented. I still don't know why chain is a thing and what it's good for or why kicking is the most useless thing in the game or why when i play with people who played warband before on the custom server where both him and me can't figure out why the chambers are not working

 

[Bb]

More customization to the new class system! Exp.

A warband and Bannerlord mix

Recruit get more recruit items ONLY , etc.
armors to weapons for each items slot a character can carry just like in warband but only limited to choose ONLY 3. Helms/shields/armor/legs/weapons/boots/gloves


  Stronger but slow
  Med but med
  Weaker but faster

Soldier ...
Archer ...
cav...

Easy rock paper scissor effect , for balance gameplay

 

[Knüppel]

I'm not flaming TW, it's fine if they have their own vision for how to improve the game, but certainly I don't understand their pursuit of certain wildly unpopular features.

I do understand he hid that wall of text in a non public forum hoping no one would actually ever read it, though.

But hey at least I can spend "rings" on becoming a flying brick and have my death deal major blows to my team. Without a shield even! Someone clearly put thought into that topic a lot.

Also good to know that "knight" is now a specific term to describe only one faction's heavy cav unit. I'd certainly mixed that up.

Class based system is easier to balance. You can compare similar classes with each other, and match 2 different classes to see how they fare generally. Also analytic data makes much more sense when you have classes. Also about unused under-powered perks we will update them when we have enough analytical data. Eg. Legionaries ALMOST ALWAYS pick heavy armor.

Gotta pick this out with a quote as it's too hilarious (or would be if I was not interested in playing this game). The design concept is based on later balancing things out once "data is collected"? Seriously, by now I am gnawing at my finger's bones, no nails or flesh left.

Also each culture has 2 better classes, 1 weaker class. By better I mean more bang for your bucks. Compared to its cost the unit has slightly better setup compared to its peers. Weaker means slightly more expensive than it should be. I won't be revealing which units for each culture but some of you already discovered them. Heard someone saying "Aserai has better light troops as Vlandians have better heavy troops I like it." It was exactly what we wanted to achieve

Last but not least this.
Old class system too confusing for new players who don't know what to select to succeed.
A designed trap with a loser class will certainly help new players a lot /sarcasm

 

[FBohler]

I think TaleWorlds should add non-ranked servers for the naked portion of the community have fun with some kind of Warband with better graphics.

 

[Klausolus]

Spoiler

In many areas of multiplayer the gameplay has been reimagined/reworked from ground up rather than built upon from Warband. Class system, new competitive gamemode, drastic combat changes, just to name a few... a worrying trend. I think TaleWorlds has the wrong impression of why Warbands multiplayer couldn't reach a larger audience. They are tackling the wrong issues and have ended up making a game that does not resemble the Warband that we know. Maybe they feel they can do things better but I don't think it's working out so far. The devs need to go back to Warband and rediscover why that game was great.

But there is a competitive foundation that the Warband community has laid for TaleWorlds which could be easily capitalized on for some level of growth. The main thing needed is matchmaking which they are providing. However all the large system changes such as the class system are not desired by the competitive community at all, so don't get the wrong impression that we are in favour of these things. In most areas competitive and casual players see eye to eye.

I agree completely. Warband's competitive scene was basically built and maintained by its players, and it turned out great. Taleworlds just had to take the foundation laid by the players and construct upon it, taking it a step further. Instead, they decided to rework everything and start from scratch, it's a shame.

One thing devs wont mention is if they return back to Warbands system, other people will still say MP is not changed at all Bannerlord is a reskin; and its not certain it will be successful as there're no new features.

Not really, Bannerlord's singleplayer maintains the same core ideas as Warband's, but improves and expands upon them, calling it a reskin wouldn't be fair. Same would be for multiplayer, no one here is against the addition of improvements and new features, what some of us don't appreciate is that they're sacrificing some of the things that built Warband's identity in multiplayer.

Also each culture has 2 better classes, 1 weaker class. By better I mean more bang for your bucks. Compared to its cost the unit has slightly better setup compared to its peers. Weaker means slightly more expensive than it should be. I won't be revealing which units for each culture but some of you already discovered them. Heard someone saying "Aserai has better light troops as Vlandians have better heavy troops I like it." It was exactly what we wanted to achieve.

If Vlandia's weaker unit isn't the peasant with a sickle I'll be really surprised 

I think TaleWorlds should add non-ranked servers for the naked portion of the community have fun with some kind of Warband with better graphics.

You understand that there's much more to the old system than the possibility of going around naked, right?

Spoiler

I just like the new class system and dislike naked guys spinning with 2 handed weapons.

But to each their own I guess.

May you share with us why you prefer the new system? So far no one has given proper arguments as to why it'd be better than the old one.

This offer is still up, by the way.

 

[FBohler]

I'm not the one to choose how TW should manage their own game.

I'm just open to the changes they are proposing, given that they know a lot more about game development than me and you, no matter how good you are at Warband.

If you want no change why you're waiting for Bannerlord then?

I gave you the perfect solution by suggedting non-ranked servers with naked 2 handers allowed, just like Warband. What more you expect from me?

 

[578]

Τhe formula of warband was loved by almost everyone, it did not need change, it needed polish. 66% of votes are showing this plus anyone in beta that I play with never said that they like the class system nor they like how it works. TW is shooting themselves in the feet with this and it will show once waves of people get in. 

On a sidenote, Callum has said some time ago in the beta forum that some customization options are coming, but they can't talk about them yet. We will wait and see.

 

[Memoefe]

Back in warband i didn't play much multiplayer because eventhough customization was so variant (nearly every class had 5 different armor, helmet, gloves, shoes, swords, shileds etc, you get the point) most of them was just pay more get better. It was so simple in a boring was imo.

I really like the idea of perk system but in bannerlord it seems soo dull(probably because of beta). I want to give them a chance to make the perk system fleshed out.

But if i had to make multiplayer customization system i would keep perk systrm but remove, 'get better sword, horse etc', instead of that i would add perk in the single player, like 'tow handed swords can block arrows' or 'using one handed sword without shield adds %x bonus damage' or 'two handed sword penalty on horse is reduced'. You get the point. Additionally i would add option to select sword shield but in a way like, do you want one handed or two handed or axe. Armor customization? Maybe, im not sure.

 

[Maroon]

In the closed beta section of the forums. They told us to stop discussing it because there was no chance of it changing, as I said in my post on the previous page.

It may simply be me being dumb, but I'm not finding any posts from the developers stating this in the beta section (unless it is in the Turkish subsection). Do you remember what thread it was in?

Edit: Just looked through Callum's posts and I definitely did not see him post anything of the sort.

 

[OurGloriousLeader]

In the Factions and Troops general board, Gibby's topic there.

 

[Klausolus]

I'm not the one to choose how TW should manage their own game.

Ultimately it's up to Taleworlds to decide what they do with their game, but ignoring useful feedback from customers is not a wise choice in any kind of business.

I'm just open to the changes they are proposing, given that they know a lot more about game development than me and you, no matter how good you are at Warband.

I never claimed to be great at Warband, but that's beyond the point anyway. What does my knowledge of game development have to do with any of this? Just because they're experts in a field it doesn't mean they can do no wrong, that's a fallacy. Game developers can't just ignore their playerbase, the interaction between both is fundamental in the success of the game.

Plus, you know that Warband's success is heavily tied to the community formed around it, right?

If you want no change why you're waiting for Bannerlord then?

I literally said this in the post above:

Spoiler

... no one here is against the addition of improvements and new features, what some of us don't appreciate is that they're sacrificing some of the things that built Warband's identity in multiplayer.

I gave you the perfect solution by suggedting non-ranked servers with naked 2 handers allowed, just like Warband. What more you expect from me?

Yeah, what else could I expect? How about a proper argumentation as to why you believe that the new system would be better than the old one? Or are you basing your opinion solely on the belief that they are the game developers and can do no wrong? Also, your suggestion isn't that far from what I'm actually asking for, but I wouldn't call it perfect.

 

[Maroon]

In the Factions and Troops general board, Gibby's topic there.

Ah, thank you, I didn't see Callum's reply there. I will repost it here for those without access:

OK, so there seems to be a few different talking points in the thread so I will try to address each one separately.

Perk System - Clearly, there is a lot that could be done to improve this system. A larger pool of perks is the most obvious solution, allowing players to further customise their loadout to suit their playstyle. However, this does need to be done with care. The idea of the class system is that you have a selection of troops that perform different functions on the battlefield. So with that in mind, we have to limit what each class can have access to in terms of gear. Otherwise, we just end up in a situation where most classes become redundant while a select few become the default picks. 

Class system/ Loadouts - We won't be returning to Warband's item selection system: we are confident that the new class-based system is a superior system for Bannerlord's MP. There are a few reasons for this -- We want characters to have a visual identity that makes it clear, at a glance, who your opponent is and what their abilities and limitations are. We want a system that is more accessible for players with a lot less ambiguity when it comes to gold and gear. We think this new system is better for balancing.

Customisation - We know that customising your character is a big part of the Mount and Blade multiplayer experience, and we will definitely be having more ways than just the character creator to allow your character to have its own personal style and flair. We have some things in the pipeline, however, we want to finalise the design before we share it with you.

Hitboxes - We have a single armour value for each class, however, we do have multiple hitboxes for body parts -- it just so happens that right now the value for each of these (other than the head) is the same, meaning damage for hits is consistent, regardless of where you hit your opponent. We are open to exploring changing these values, and I think in this Friday's patch you will see a small change there (hits to the feet will deal less damage).

The class system is here to stay so it would be great if we could discuss ways to improve it rather than keep revisiting the idea of dropping it completely and returning to Warband's system.

@Marko - I certainly understand that many people would like to see battle mode in Warband, and to be honest, we aren't set against it so don't completely write it off just yet. If we do include something like that though, there is a strong possibility that we won't be supporting it as a game mode on servers that we host, and if it is included, it would definitely be using Bannerlord's class system.

One other point I would like to make is: please don't exaggerate your statements. The vast majority (and I really do mean vast) of Mount & Blade players play singleplayer. Less than 10% of people playing the game right now are playing MP. Clearly, there is something that discourages a lot of people from playing MP, which is why we are trying to make that side of the game more accessible. And, from the ones that play MP, siege was/is by far the most enjoyed game mode for our players, not battle. We did a survey on this when I arrived at the company, siege won hands down, taking 46% of the 5375 votes cast from a category of 8 different game modes (battle was a distant second with 21% of the votes).

 

[578]

I like the fact that Callum says that classes are made to do different things in the battlefield yet there are no class limits, effectively enabling facerolling through cavalry or 6 man archer compositions. In Siege classes will be meaningless, if sieges have classes then it will simply be bad design because what he states is false. Also, the visual 'fidelity' of classes is not there. 80% of classes look uninteresting or too plain. When you make classes in a game you have to give them a special edge in both gameplay and visuals. Currently, neither exist. Very poor explanation by Callum that is not true at all. 

Also, Callum, sieges won't be fun with how archery works in the game, I am sure you saw that coming already because archery is easy as hell, thrown weapons are ridiculously accurate yet slow and the damage is all but consistent, infantry fights can drag too long and some classes need 6-7 hits to die. Also, currently, an unarmored horse needs more than 6-7 arrows to drop yet, somehow, one javelin might drop it. This is beyond incosistent and consistent, current beta is bad design. Dont take this the wrong way, plenty of time exist to fix issues, but I am replying given the current state of the game.

Edit: I have no access to the beta forum, yet I am in the beta.