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Modders vs Devs
- Thread starter Consul_Kaiser
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WhyAmIHere
Oh ok now I get what you're saying. You are indeed correct about that.
That said I stand by my original statement that pitting modders against devs is stupid and blames the wrong people.
The thread itself is pointless anyway. Devs are doing their job. They are not the one who is deciding those features. If it was "TW Decision Makers/Game Designers vs Community Modders" then it would make sense.
Even about the development pace, we don't know what's actually holding updates back. It very much could be that devs are horrible and slow at coding. But it can also be that their development cycle/sprints are planned in this way and it's not dev's fault to release updates in each 6 months. It can be that Definition of Done is not set properly by Product Owners and that might be the reason for revisions. It could be that testing team is too slow or understaffed. etc etc. You get the point.
And each dev team have a completely different responsibility and codebase anyway. The same goes for modders too. So generalizing them in one pot makes no sense.
WhyAmIHere
the only real insight (if you can call it that) we have is their glassdoor reviews, of which the bad reviews consistently paint a portrait of TW being horrendously unorganized leading to messy and slow development. Obviously you've got to take glassdoor with a grain of salt, but it's all we really have in terms of an inside look, and the consistency of the bad reviews bringing up disorganization does speak to it being a real problem.
I don't know if you can call it work or a scam
the modders are what the devs should be like: hard working, persistent, efficient, and passionate. but the devs themselves have this holier than thou attitude when their competence is in question here.
It's nowhere near the same though? Native Warband is still a lot more polished and endearing than native Bannerlord. Mods for it just added to it or adjusted fun features to be even greater. Bannerlord is missing a majority of the vanilla features or greatness of them, to the point that modders have to either add it themselves or so radically change them back to Warband-ish quality.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
There is a lot of hints that confirm this possibility, between the huge growth of the studio and the stark contrast between a very productive and effective small group of dev for M&B to a massively slow big group for BL, Glassdoor reviews, obvious lack of planning, impossibility to define goals and so on.
Long live the mods? I do not really understand one sided bootlicking. Remember.. everything modders use is provided by the developer(s). You should thank them first. At the same time, respect both, one cannot live without the other.
That being said, I did play native Bannerlord for a while, and enjoyed it. I just enjoyed mods more.
That being said, I did play native Bannerlord for a while, and enjoyed it. I just enjoyed mods more.
yeah you right about that. I can't even afford bannerlord
but I still enjoy Warband so I wont complain muchif talented devs let useless managers walk all over them then frankly i have no respect for them either. having a back bone is very important.
i worked in the food industry for years and i've not met a single decent chef that lets managers or customers tell him what to do. it's his way of the high way. same thing should be done for the gaming industry. where the quality of the product is at risk when dumb asses take control and make decisions. which ultimately hurt the product and company.
if a chef rushed a steak because a manager called for it quicker, and it gets sent back due to not being fully cooked, it's his fault. but most of the chefs i worked with will tell that manager to **** off and his steak is coming when it's ready. when the manager goes, hey add some of this spice or flavors, the chef will once again tell him to **** off and the food will taste how he sees fit.
honestly if game devs did that. we wouldn't have any "early releases" or unfinished games. if the game devs played their games as much as they worked on it, maybe the games will be fun to play.
And a breach of contract most likely and I dont believe we’re talking small fines.
Nalgasucia507
Squire
Incredible Bull!
Chef’s will tell their dying mother to **** off if they dont like something, Dev’s will say sorry when getting punched in the face. Hyperbolic ofcourse, but were talking about completely different characters.
Chefs are predominantly dominant while dev’s are predominantly detached/stand-offish.
Its the nature of the job which draws these characters.
Dominant characters overview processes and are considerd to be generalists while detached characters delve into the minitieus details of the process and are considered specialists.
Apples and pears.
WhyAmIHere
Comparing cooking a meal to making a video game is a silly comparison, given that the latter involves many MANY more people and many MANY more layers of complexity, not to mention the differences between office politics and line chef politics.
Funny thing is, I know this to be true from a statistical standpoint, but every single PM I've worked with went straight into PM-ing with essentially zero SDE experience (at best a CS degree).
Funny thing is, I know this to be true from a statistical standpoint, but every single PM I've worked with went straight into PM-ing with essentially zero SDE experience (at best a CS degree).
It's true that the good engineers usually don't want the hassle of management and its responsibilities, and rely on their seniority and expertise to influence decisions.
But what you are saying seems strange - responsible roles like PMs need some kind of qualification and experience (unless there's rampant nepotism and the projects are not demanding). Companies rarely hire outside people and try to grow their own PMs because their people know their business and company culture. Companies do hire outside people for top management jobs where they simply don't have the talent to promote.
WhyAmIHere
It's weird. One of them was REALLY good, and the other two were REALLY bad. I think the good one was good because she was just technical enough to have an idea of what we were talking about during meetings, but not technical enough to think she knew better than us w/r/t timelines and whatnot. The bad ones I'm pretty sure were at least partly a result of nepotism.
what you are merely observing the the surface facts. they are relatively different personalities types. but you fail to notice why. the game production industry has not been in existance for longer than a few decades. while the food industry has been around for a long time, it's very big, very established, and very competitive. the game development industry is growing and becoming more and more like the food industry in these aspects as time passes, therefore it faces the same challenges, that have been solved before.
maybe it takes a tough dominant character type to successfully run a game studio. so he can fend off the pressure from the suits as they grow n go public, the managers as they acquire more size. and the PR as they hire more employees. his job now much like the head chef is no longer cooking but managing those working for him. to produce a singular vision: satisfied customers through providing a good quality product.
i've noticed many gaming companies in the last decade, as they grow bigger in size and popularity, their game qualities decline and customer satisfaction goes with it. they start doing all the shady things big corpo do to make an extra buck, cutting corners here and there. gaming wasn't that big of a thing and didn't face big industry problems 10-20 years ago, but they do now.
game devs now have to deal with suits. the same old boomers that for the last 20 years have said gaming was a bunch of losers wasting their lives away. i highly doubt they have changed that view now that they are earning a paycheck from the very same gamers, and probably have been subconsciously or even purposefully sabotaging game development from the inside.
