Lancers - Observations, Conclusions and Solutions

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That is purely your opinion, and seems pretty contrived at that, I might add. I could make the exact same argument and just swap that it takes no skill to just swing a sword and get close/bunch up and sword spam away.

I was going to say inb4 "well, hussar is underpowered to lancer", but obviously I'm not inb4, although I'll still make my point, something new in this thread, for a change. Perhaps the only solid, somewhat objective argument, in my mind, of lancer being overpowered vs another class is the lancer vs hussar outside of skill set. Both classes have a "light sabre", my anti lancer friends have argued strongly that, barring some skill differences, this is proof of an undisputable lancer advantage. Upon further examination, I think not. Below is an image of two dead TADERS, with the Prussian lancer's light sabre on the left, and the Russian hussar's light sabre on the right. Please examine.

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Clearly, there are discernable differences in the appearance of these items. Whether or not these differences are purely aesthetic, I can only speculate on. I dont claim to be an expert on game mechanics or pretend to understand the coding of weapons, but I think its very possible these two weapons have different attributes. The two weapons share the name, much like the lance which shares the name among 3 faction versions with differences in range and speed. I have always thought dragoons using sabres were were more dangerous than other cavalry, it could be purely psychological or due to stats alone, but I doubt it. Perhaps one of the benevolent developers could further enlighten us on this.

Regarding other cavalry, I would certainly say the ranged capability of dragoons, roughly equal for all purposes to that of musketeers, counts much for this class's abilities. This is a fact I feel you are far too quick to overlook and dismiss. Using your carbine to effect depends, like any weapon, on skill and a personal playing style/choice. Similarly, heavy swords can be quite effectively applied to destroy lancer or any enemy face. The great range and damage are even more effective with a tactful use in combination with a strategy to use favourable ground and close range/horse blocking. Heavy swords and even sabres can outrange lances at many angles and combat situations, and are far more effect at close range and in stationary/slow combat.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the fact that its hard to face a lancer on open ground in a head on charge, using only your sabre. Lets not forget the other options you can explore to beat them. I present my evidence as a simple image, for all to see and speculate on, not hearsay about some supposed situation involving specific players in a specific situation setting out to prove a point that simply cannot be applied with proper reasoning to the general condition.

 
I'm perfectly fine taking out lancers but I'm also thinking of newer players or the more average skill level players. Walking into a game with such a powerful class dominating servers would probably be a turn off for some people.
 
Tader, all light sabres have the same stats (30c swing, 104 length 93 speed). As for the lances, well they all have the same stats too, with the exception of the 'long lance' which has an additional +5 range (whom this is assigned too I'm not sure).

I know a lot of people claim the french lance  has longer range, but personally I feel that it is the model which gives the impression that it is a lot longer than the others, all the lances need to have the a model with accurately represent their stats - when they are different in size it can cause confusion.

EDIT: fixed typo
 
Its the same, check with Morgh tools.

They have redwhite lance, which is the same than other coloured lances (the ones used by the lancers). There exists a Long lance though (with 190 length instead of 185), but doesnt appear to be used by anyone.
 
That may be true, but my experience, instinct, and intuition tells me it is not. Where are you getting this information from, exactly?

Can a developer or comparable authority on the mod confirm this?
 
Tader, all the stats on the weapons, horses and armours for russia3 is found in the item_kinds1.txt file, if you can make sense of all the numbers it tells you all you need to know, otherwise you can just download a item editor (like I did) to show all these stats. Can't remember the name of the one I use, but I'll edit this post and provide a link if I can find it
 
TADER_BROS_Ltd. said:
Thanks dude.

Just to confirm, all utilized lances are listed as having equal range and speed?

Supposed to.

But I think the problem lays in the animation and sight of the lance, the french lance looks longer so your more likely to use the length of it to its full potential, the length of the prussian and russian lancers looks and feels small only because you feel you have to get closer ... if the Prussian and russian lances had the same looks ... they'd feel the same.

Its really about how it looks than anything else, but they are supposed to be the same.
 
Morgh tools, found here can be used to look at the stats,  and yes, all the lances (used in-game) have the same stats: 80 speed, 185 length, 30p thrust 11b swing.

Kator is right though, the russian/prussian lances feel small so it feels like you must get close, which is misleading
 
hazy said:
Morgh tools, found here can be used to look at the stats,  and yes, all the lances (used in-game) have the same stats: 80 speed, 185 length, 30p thrust 11b swing.

Kator is right though, the russian/prussian lances feel small so it feels like you must get close, which is misleading

Yeh got Morgh tools to look before posting ... you know have to make sure and all.

But yeh ... so evil is that feeling.
 
Is there a giant difference in stats between French and prussian lancers perchance? it's not so much the lengths being the same I question, it's the speeds, they simply do not appear to move at the same speed at all, and I wonder if stats can actually affect that
 
osdeath said:
Is there a giant difference in stats between French and prussian lancers perchance? it's not so much the lengths being the same I question, it's the speeds, they simply do not appear to move at the same speed at all, and I wonder if stats can actually affect that

Everything is pretty much the same, the lances are exactly the same ... they just feel different with different textures that can mislead you.
 
So we can agree that lancers are fine and we can finally lock this thread and lock any future thread has anything to do with lancer QQing.....agreed.  Or we could bend to the demands of the "people",using the word people really loose, and just take lancers out of the game to make them stop QQing but then they will say Arty is OP or that the Highlanders need to have longer kilts which would make them move slower.
 
PolishSTALIN said:
So we can agree that lancers are fine and we can finally lock this thread and lock any future thread has anything to do with lancer QQing.....agreed.  Or we could bend to the demands of the "people",using the word people really loose, and just take lancers out of the game to make them stop QQing but then they will say Arty is OP or that the Highlanders need to have longer kilts which would make them move slower.

You can easily ignore the thread if you want to. There are no rule violations here that would warrant its closing and people are still discussing.

Now, knowing about the consistencies of these Sabre stats I think it's very easy to say that on a stats basis Lancer (without Lance) = Hussar (the speed difference being negligible) and obviously Lancer (with Lance) > Hussar, thereby confirming Lancers having an overall advantage. Something that was pretty established a while back by Hekko is now hopefully confirmed in some of the opposition's minds. I mean, even if there were some discrepancies in some stats, I don't think they'd be nearly as noticeable as the option and potency of the Lance.

Evan
 
PolishSTALIN said:
So we can agree that lancers are fine and we can finally lock this thread and lock any future thread has anything to do with lancer QQing.....agreed.  Or we could bend to the demands of the "people",using the word people really loose, and just take lancers out of the game to make them stop QQing but then they will say Arty is OP or that the Highlanders need to have longer kilts which would make them move slower.


Reading atleast the OP is usually a common courtesy before making statements like yours, especially when you make a post of your kind. Maybe you find it boring, but, hey, you're not obliged to read it and there's hardly anything that you could find offensive in here warranting this to be locked. Constructive criticism and discussion is what brings development forward, and since this is a forum for discussion about MM one would think discussion about MM to be allowed.

You're post is one big fallacy it consists soley of strawmen and slippery slope falacies, so before you demonize some peoples contribution to the general pool of feedback regarding the mod you probably should evalutate your own.

Edit: Seeing that you actually posted a few days I find your post even more out of place, since you cannot help to have missed that there are valid concerns, I don't think that even the staunchest pro-lancers are of the opinion, anymore atleast, that the thread can be dismissed as some people being butthurt because they got couched twice on the battle server.
 
Actaully I'm pretty sure thats exactly how this thread started...

Why close it though Pilawa? The way I see it this thread serves only to benefit people, if only by the LULZ contained herein. And thats if it has any effect at all, I mean you'd have to already have a solid opinion one way or another to have even come close to reading this thing, and its not like it will make a big difference to any actual changes made or not made. I think it just shows that when it comes to the classes in this game, theres nothing to be afraid of, nothing to hide, and no reason for a skilled player to condemn outright anything in the mod.
 
There seems to be an elitist attitude amongst many of the pro-lancers. The pro-lancer argument consists pretty much of, "well the skilled players have no problem killing lancers so all players should be able to kill them easily" if you just watch lancers at work in an average game you'll see how hard it is for an average player to beat them. I don't really care about how well skilled players can handle lancers because we all know they can handle lancers, I'm worried about the average player or new players and how they will most likely be turned off of MM by the presence of such a dominate class.
 
TADER_BROS_Ltd. said:
Actaully I'm pretty sure thats exactly how this thread started...

Even in the quite improbable scenario that it started because of that it still sounds on a much more solid foundation than mere QQ. (While I am not the starter of this thread I am of the same ilk, am I not? And we played on the battle server one night and did I rage about lancer every time you couched me?)

I think there is enough doubt about the powerlevel of the lancers to warrant a discussion, regardless of whatever the outcome might be.

KillerMongoose said:
There seems to be an elitist attitude amongst many of the pro-lancers. The pro-lancer argument consists pretty much of, "well the skilled players have no problem killing lancers so all players should be able to kill them easily" if you just watch lancers at work in an average game you'll see how hard it is for an average player to beat them. I don't really care about how well skilled players can handle lancers because we all know they can handle lancers, I'm worried about the average player or new players and how they will most likely be turned off of MM by the presence of such a dominate class.

I agree with most stuff in here, one also has to consider the general population, as well as the fact that the skill ceiling is quite high in Warband based games and thus the top players will quite rarely face each other in combat situations since the skill spread is so high.
 
KillerMongoose said:
I don't really care about how well skilled players can handle lancers because we all know they can handle lancers, I'm worried about the average player or new players and how they will most likely be turned off of MM by the presence of such a dominate class.

TBH I don't think you are worried about much besides your own playing experience, as your concern about the class stems only from your own frame of reference. And honestly if a newer player to the mod can't learn to counter lancers after playing native, and having access to the tools given to classes in this mod, they probably aren't the type of players we want to be succeeding right away. If a player new to Warband comes in and faces the same difficulties, well, this is the school of hard knocks, if they can't "learn to play" (pardon my usage), they shouldn't be here.

If you read my last post you will see I am in fact defending this thread. There really is nothing to hide and I don't think this thread threatens to compromise the quality of the mod, or would have the ability to do so if it did. I'm not trying to cut down the entire threads existence or question the integrity of every poster who disagrees with me, I just have some theories about the motivations that directly caused the thread's creation. Good day.
 
I've noticed something ... Hussars will never go against lancers ... unless you plan on doing French vs French in a training game or duel, in any line battle or battle game there will never be lancer Vs Hussar, and people will pick their favourite anyway ... so thus a comparison is pretty useless ... would you not agree?

I've only just thought of this and can't beleive its taken me so long.
 
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