Lancers - Observations, Conclusions and Solutions

[Evanovic]

Evanovic

Although I've stated my opinions and made my points ample times in this thread already, I feel the need to clear the air and further explain a few things. I need to get a few things off my chest and, if I may, dispel the image of the mean bully who makes personal attacks without reason that I have been portrayed as in this thread.

I know you Evanovic. I knew this thread was coming before it surfaced, and I knew you would be the one to make it. I remember quite well the time when I first encountered and killed you memorably under your current alias. It was around the end of the summer, I encountered you on Official Battle, playing of course as lancer, while you played several sword cavalry varieties and infantry. I killed you several times, to mild complaining, when for a round or two you neglected your usual feeble dodge or attack to counter my couch with a statue-still downblock. You proceeded to light up general chat with how you "blocked my attack" and it didn't work, "wtf". etc..

You didn't know that couches were unblockable.

Now this kind of encounter/reaction speaks volumes to me when evaluating the experience of a warband player. Needless to say it counted a great deal for me when judging your character and opinions on this thread. But I will return to this momentarily. In the meantime please allow me to give a quick background of my history as a player.

I have known about couching since May of 2011 pretty much. Since then I have clocked up 1000 hours of MM (I love it that much) and am therefore an experienced player. There is absolutely no way I didn't know about couching in August, so your comment is total garbage. I may have mistaken a stab for a couch in the heat of the battle and complained for that reason, or I might've even been talking to someone else, or maybe I was just annoyed. I don't remember this 'Summer incident' too well really, it could be made up for all I know. But one thing is for sure, I have known since getting reasonabley good at the mod (around May time) that couching exists.

Now, with standing that lie (or misunderstanding), me being a player of 1000 hours of MM, having been involved in 2 regiments and having played as a lancer and other cavalry on numerous occasions gives me a fair bit of credibility in arguing the case I have put forward in this thread. I don't claim to know it all and I don't claim to be more experienced than you Tader, but I feel that I've argued (with the help of others and opposition feedback) a pretty objective, logical and impersonal case. You, however, have not. And you continue not to do so. It always seems to boil down to personal reasons with you Tader. Look at my posts: 98% of the content I have written is objective debate. I'm not here to squabble, I'm here to approach the Lancer argument in as scientific/statistic/logical a way possible. Ofcourse there are limitations, as it's very hard to quantify a class of soldier in a game, but I think those who have tried have done a great job at it (on both the opposition side and my side).

I started playing Warband soon after its release, and was an avid fan of Mount and Blade and old development versions before then. The combat system and unique, original dynamics of this series, especially mounted combat, captured much of my imagination and even more of my time, as I'm sure it did many of you. The multiplayer aspect of Warband greatly excited me and I became even more of an enthusiast, taking great pleasure in the opportunity to hone my skills and face the challenges of other players from around the world. I was late to enter the mod playing community of this game. Being somewhat of a purist, I held the opinion that mods could only detract from the glorious game experience, and disdained at titles such as "persistent world", and "crpg". One fateful day I was killed by an admin gun in a server running Vincenzo's Admin Tools, this perplexed and slightly enraged me at the time, arousing my curiosity. Before long I had discovered Mount and Musket and begain to play avidly at the beginning of 2011.

Mount and Musket proved to me to be very different than most other mods. It offered a totally unique departure from the experience of native while still offering a competitive, skill based multiplayer experience. I see the classes and game of MM through the frame of the native experience. After all, the original game module should be the measure when comparing a mod. Coming as a veteran cavalry player and lancer from native, I was actually first attracted to MM because of the increased challenge and therefore fun when playing my preferred class.

I see the classes in MM as essentially divergences from native classes, and therefore the combat balance and game experience as a divergence.

-MM infantry are armed with firearms, something like a crossbow or bow with huge damage, accuracy/trajectory differences, and massively increased reload time. Line infantry are in the same weapon armed with a stabbing weapon very close to an awlpike of native, providing effective melee capabilities with strong anti-cavalry potential. The riflemen of most factions trade the bayonet for the increased range, accuracy and damage of rifled firearms. All classes in this mod lack shields, which has implications for combat overall, making all ranged attacks unblockable and changing the melee combat game. Overall, these infantry have both drawbacks and buffs when compared with their native counterparts of archers and infantry, being more limited in their equipment but being armed with effective melee and ranged attacks, which are even more effective in numbered volleys/reloading shifts.

-MM cavalry come in several varieties. I'll begin with the elephant in the thread: lancers. Lancers and indeed all cavalry are changed comparatively little from native. Lancers are armed with their namesake weapon standardized somewhere between the native light lance and heavy lance, depending on faction. These cavalrymen lose their emblematic shield and carry a curved sword/sabre through from their journey from medieval(native) times. Other cavalry bring to the Napoleonic battlefield the same sabre or similar blade and a shortened musket comparable to its infantry counterpart, or a massive sword with the range of a native two-handed sword and handling of a one-handed sword. The hussar alone bravely charges into the fray carrying only the sabre, the advantages from the speed, proficiency and handling of this class are debatable and based largely on personal preference. Any additional differences of equipment, proficiencies and horses are faction-variable and confer only situational advantages based on playing style and preference of player. (Lancer A prefers the the range of the French lance, while Lancer B prefers the speed of the Russian lance)(Cavalryman A prefers the speed and maneuverability of light horses, while Cavalryman B prefers the health and charging power of heavy horses.) (And everything in between.)

-MM also offers several "curve-ball" units and specialty classes, many with highly valuable battlefield abilities. Artillery offer an unprecedented potential to inflict high destruction at range to distance parts of the battlefield, armed with mostly marginal melee weapons and some degree of anti cavalry potential/LOL factor in the ramrods. Opelcheniye have their ubiquitous random collection of weapons, many of them unique and surprisingly useful. Scattered throughout the ranks are officers and standard-bearers, with an arsenal of swords and pistols, lances and melee weapons adding to battlefield diversity. Generals lead their armies with heavy swords and a health and horse health bonus. Musicians colour the battlefield and inspire/amuse many players, for what they are worth.

The idea that lancers are paramount to an unstoppable or overpowered aspect among their fellow cavalry armed with carbines and heavy swords, let alone such an aspect withing the menagerie of weapons and abilities listed above, with the mass of the common musket(deadly range+effective melee/anti cav) found all over the battlefield, is nothing but a misconception purveyed by the fallacies constantly bombarded at us by anti-lancer whiners who will always find something to complain about.

Every cavalry class and indeed game class will have application and advantages in certain situations. Lancers are strong on flat, fast ground where they can use their range and speed to full effect. Sword cavalry and dragoons gain the upper hand in rougher terrain where movement of cavalry is impaired. Its really not a hard concept to grasp. If you have trouble defeating a certain class, change your tactics and force the enemy to fight on ground favourable to your class.

I really appreciate you giving us all your life story Tader. Very eloquent and enlightening. Full of relevance too...

This brings me back to you, Evanovic. I hope after hearing where I come from and my take on the mod, as well as our previous encounters, the remaining followers of this thread, if there are any, will better understand my lack of regard for many of your opinions and hopefully gain a bit of insight into the mechanics of combat and balance. If lancers aren't considered overpowered in native, which I am fairly confident most reasonable and experienced native players would agree they are not, then they certainly are not overpowered in this mod with its departures from native combat, as listed above. I believe that you and your fellows would only move on to the next most challenging game aspect to yourself, even if lancers were totally removed.

It is pretty naive to assume that MM would be balanced if Native was, simply because of the shared game-engine and mechanical basis. I'd say the two are as different as Checkers and Chess; they share a basis but are very different games. Just because MM has its roots in Native does not mean it is balanced. It's so obvious that this logic is compeltely ludicrous. What if Vince halved the reload time on muskets? Would you still claim that it was balanced simply because the mod shares the same mechanics and some derivations from Native classes? You may have experience, but these sorts of shallow assumptions do not make much sense. They are certainly not solid argument to conclude that Lancers are balanced... I think most people will see this: those who support a lance nerf, onlookers and even opposition to the lancer case.

When did this happen? I recall him admonishing both several posters for whining and arguing about lancers in that thread, and myself for arguing and stating that he was tired of me talking about how my class is "perfect as is". However, the only thing close to what you are stating that I can recall is the claim of that "Mikkel the Great" individual, who I personally would consider less than reliable. Let's not let rumours get the better of us now, and I'l leave that at that.

In the end, any changes are of course completely up to the devs, and I am sure there will be many changes and additions to the mod in the next patch. I am also confident in the developers knowing what to remove/change for the betterment of the mod, and what would detract from the mod and serve only to cater to the vocal, whiny minority. They made this mod what it is now, and I have total faith that whatever they produce next will be a fun and engaging product, whatever changes they make. After all, we have waited long enough for it.

In any case, I believe any minor impact that this thread may have possibly had on the opinions of the devs and therefore outcome of the mod would have been realized in the beginning of the thread, when all parties involved had amply stated their opinions and before the thread became horribly TL;DR. For my would-be opponents in this debate: I really wouldn't be proud of the length of discussion contained herein. A massive amount of the posts, I am ashamed to say my own included, are regurgitated opinions and re-hashed facts. You seem overly proud of the responses you have elicited, most of which seem to be Kator half-trolling you for the LOLZ, and you pat yourself on the back because someone is perpetuating your discussion. Trust me, it doesn't mean you are winning.

I'm very certain action will be taken on the Lancers in the upcoming patches. So much so that I'd bet on it. Obviously I'd like it done in the way I am advocating, but any attempt by the devs to bring the Lancer class into line is a step in the right direction in my eyes. I'm glad you have faith in them, it strangely enough tells me you have faith in my side of the argument too, because I am certain the devs will do something about Lancers.

 

[TADER_BROS_Ltd.]

Evan, Buddy, wanna hug it out?

I'm certain it was you involved in the incident, you may have done what you did for show or to attempt to prove a point, you may not have. What I do know is what I stated before, that I was there when you discovered how couched lancing works. Which brings us to my next point. Comparison with native is one of the best tools we have in analysis of the mod. Not to speculate that balance in one carries over to another, but too examine weapons, classes and how things have changed. Infantry are given short, musket/spears, and deprived of shields, throwing weapons and secondary weapons for the most part. Sword cavalry are deprived of shields/weapon choice and given carbines or extra long swords. Lancers are deprived of shields and given a standardized lance. Lancer combat changes very little in this mod when compared with native, which I personally find very attractive and challenging playing both as and against. When you look at the capabilities given to infantry and other cavalry over native as compared to lancers, there really isn't any magic overwhelming advantage given to lancers. At all. Sure, they can use a change or two, what aspect in any mod can't? I really however see no substantial, concrete evidence of this crazy "OP"ness you speak of, and I also see no majority opinion from the community that lancers are overpowered. And since you, my friend, are the one making speculations here, I believe the onus is very much on you to provide solid, convincing evidence of what you are proposing.

So I'm glad you appreciate my life story, but please try to see some of the relevance and solid points that I think I've made there and in other posts, and try not to get your feelings hurt so much. I call 'em like I see 'em, and here I simply see someone who doesn't really understand the fine points of what he is arguing, and is simply frustrated with something he has yet to learn how to counter.

Alright, lets bet on it! Money's on the table, and I raise you 2000 denar, plus 500 shillings. My point is more that whatever the dev team decides to change, I'm confident that their product will be playable and enjoyable, without speculating what they will do and childishly trying to affect their decisions.

 

[The Magnificent Bastard]

*Snores loudly*
*awakens with a start*

Wha....Oh, you're still at it?

*Goes back to sleep*

 

[Kator Viridian]

*Snores loudly*
*awakens with a start*

Wha....Oh, you're still at it?

*Goes back to sleep*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_Y2nBr_c4w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb_W7aMUu5I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uikpZu2zZvE

"We're just a bunch Stoned illterate weezing shagging lardy bastards"

Should lighten the mood.

Oh Yes forgot about this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-NgNvq5e_g

"Oh Mr Knightly my Synapses are shutting down"

 

[Bruhlan Revan]

All I'm gonna say is that I've fought both other Non Lancer Cavalry guys and Infantry guys that are very good at the game and it is very challenging to kill them.

These guys. Two I can think of right off the bat is Gunny of the EPI And KillerMongoose.

There's been a good amount of times that both Gunny (Being Infantry most of the time from what I've seen)
And Mongoose as an excellent Horsemen that they killed me. Alooot of times!

It's very challenging and fun to fight these two.

So obviously these guys know what they're doing. They can both kill Lancer's with ease.

Now to the "Normal Joe" Infantryman.
On Pub's every time I play it seems everyone is a Sniper. Now everyone really ain't just that most of them get a-lot of lucky shots on me or my horse from afar. So now I'm de-horsed and have to run up to you fools and kill you.

So you Infantry guys can shoot and kill us from afar.

We Lancer's have to get in close to attempt to kill you guys.
Still. Even here you guys can shoot our horse or us even. If you shoot our horse we fall to the ground...We're even on our bellies for a good second...Plenty of time for you whiners to kill us.
Don't have a ball loaded? Hey you also have a Bayonet. That can very effectively be used against any Cavalry and Infantry.

All you people who complain on Lancer's being over powered are simply whining.
How can you guys actually get good at killing us?

I don't know. Practice. Think. 

Respectfully,
Freikorps Lancer Revan

 

[KillerMongoose]

All I'm gonna say is that I've fought both other Non Lancer Cavalry guys and Infantry guys that are very good at the game and it is very challenging to kill them.

These guys. Two I can think of right off the bat is Gunny of the EPI And KillerMongoose.

And Mongoose as an excellent Horsemen that they killed me. Alooot of times!

I feel honoured

 

[Aztir]

*just saw the flood of text about lancers*

didnt know lancers were such a big deal
i dislike dragoons more than lancers actually.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Dragoons are at least balanced, the fact that they can't reload on horseback or while moving makes it so. And their horses are usually pretty slow.

 

[PolishSTALIN]

Spoiler

On average lancers will get less kills, skilled players will still do well, but the average player will find more skill demanded of them to get kills. If we assumed that the average length of a battle remained the same, after such a change, the Kills/Time ratio would be worse off for lancers, and thus we'd expect them to get less kills.

Well sir you are totally wrong, I've seen many average lancers get more kills then a Ech em Freikorps lancer (not playing Favorites).  I've also seen some of the FK dragoons do better then the FK lancer.  Also what makes you think that the longer the battle the less kills lancers will get, I say you watch the learderboards next line battle and see where the lancers are in the end of the battle.  7/10 time you'll see atleast 3-4 lancers in the top 10 and 1-2 in the top five, sometimes you'll see all of the top 5 spots are lancers.

Did you not say you were a skilled player

Spoiler

I have clocked up 1000 hours of MM (I love it that much) and am therefore an experienced player.

Then why would you be up in arms QQing about lancers.  I think your mom just didn't teach you to be greatful for having lancers on your team during Linebattles.

Q_Q to you sir

 

[Evanovic]

How many times must it be said that this isn't a thread about certain players (seems to be directed at me) being inadequate at taking down lancers. I'm not doing this for personal gain, I'm doing it so that the game is fairer overall. I don't have enough trouble with Lancers for it to drastically affect my gameplay and for it to warrant some personal gain with such a nerf. I just observe an imbalance and would like it changed because I want this mod to succeed in providing both fun and fair gameplay for all.

I am very pedantic as a person in everday life with this notion of equality and fairness, probably why I scrutinise a lot of admining decisions that I deem unfair. Perhaps it's a rather exaggerated aspect of my personality and not always necessary, but for the mod I think it makes more sense to push such an agenda forward, as it's NOT a personal clash and only with the aim to improve.

So please don't use the 'Learn to play' or 'Be greatful for what you have' argument, because it's not a self-centered quest and has pretty reasonable aims.

Evan

 

[Kator Viridian]

as it's NOT a personal clash and only with the aim to improve.

Considering most of the points about the lancer "nurfing" are opinions it is a personal clash ... sorry to have to say it but an opinion is a personal view so no matter what you think as long as you use the term "I" it will always be personal ... trying to say its not is like denying your own existance.

So please don't use the 'Learn to play' or 'Be greatful for what you have' argument, because it's not a self-centered quest and has pretty reasonable aims.

Sorry but so far from what i've seen of those who want lancers to be nurfed are those who tend not to like lancers at all ... or don't play as them, but personally being on the pointy end of the lancers most of the time I can, within reasonable circumstances, say the lancers are fine ... its is mainly self defence against them that makes the lancers have an unfair advantage ... in an age of gunpowder and more ranged weapons than sense I don't see how cavalry should be a problem ... pointy metal stick + ball of flying metal ... should really win a majority of the time.

So i'd say in the majority of circumstances it is "Be greatful" or "Play better".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf4GAGwW7XA

Back onto 2 steps from hell it is

 

[Evanovic]

Considering most of the points about the lancer "nurfing" are opinions it is a personal clash ... sorry to have to say it but an opinion is a personal view so no matter what you think as long as you use the term "I" it will always be personal ... trying to say its not is like denying your own existance.

It's not personal in the sense that I'm not refering to individuals and regiments when I talk about Lancers, and neither am I using emotive adjectives to describe the problem of lancers. However, some of the opposition seem to be replying in this way.

Sorry but so far from what i've seen of those who want lancers to be nurfed are those who tend not to like lancers at all ... or don't play as them, but personally being on the pointy end of the lancers most of the time I can, within reasonable circumstances, say the lancers are fine ... its is mainly self defence against them that makes the lancers have an unfair advantage ... in an age of gunpowder and more ranged weapons than sense I don't see how cavalry should be a problem ... pointy metal stick + ball of flying metal ... should really win a majority of the time.

So i'd say in the majority of circumstances it is "Be greatful" or "Play better"

That certainly doesn't apply to me. I play Cavalry frequently, all types, despite being in an infantry regiment and I enjoy it, but my enjoyment doesn't prevent me from approaching the issue objectively.

 

[Hekko]

I would like to point out that for those who want to claim that there is no problem and that those who claim there is a problem need to learn to play that this is borderline ad hominen and secondly that by setting the precedent on something like that, it opens a Pandora's Box of possible arguments that all will boil down to l2p, which is highly unproductive and rather rude towards everyone who has bothered to argue any point of view more than just stating learn to play.

I would also like to point out that it's not a personal clash, that's why alot of the pro-nerf people have centered their argument around avarages. While all individuals will have their opinions and points of view one can still observe avarage performance, and then calculate a possible statistical significance in the differences.

Obviously people will be biased towards their own playing style, it's just natural, one will observe that alot of people with low incomes will vote on leftist parties and high income people vote on whichever party promises the lowest taxes, and the same holds true here, lancers like the class the way it is, other cav as well as infantry want it changed. What matters  though is how well one presents ones arguments for ones point of view, and how valid they are.

 

[TADER_BROS_Ltd.]

Obviously people will be biased towards their own playing style, it's just natural, one will observe that alot of people with low incomes will vote on leftist parties and high income people vote on whichever party promises the lowest taxes, and the same holds true here, lancers like the class the way it is, other cav as well as infantry want it changed. What matters  though is how well one presents ones arguments for ones point of view, and how valid they are.

Obviously you have never seen much of the Southern USA, the Midwest of USA and Canada, and Alaska.

I think what matters in the end is the majority of players' perception of the issue, which I believe is quite moderate and weighted towards less extreme changes, rather than that of a vocal minority who are happy to present their arguments quite well for 30 plus pages of a thread. And what ultimately matters are the opinions and choices of the developers, whose property this mod is lets not forget. I believe these people will make the right decisions and continue to produce a robust, enjoyable mod to play, as they have for some time.

 

[Hekko]

Obviously people will be biased towards their own playing style, it's just natural, one will observe that alot of people with low incomes will vote on leftist parties and high income people vote on whichever party promises the lowest taxes, and the same holds true here, lancers like the class the way it is, other cav as well as infantry want it changed. What matters  though is how well one presents ones arguments for ones point of view, and how valid they are.

Obviously you have never seen much of the Southern USA, the Midwest of USA and Canada, and Alaska.

I think what matters in the end is the majority of players' perception of the issue, which I believe is quite moderate and weighted towards less extreme changes, rather than that of a vocal minority who are happy to present their arguments quite well for 30 plus pages of a thread. And what ultimately matters are the opinions and choices of the developers, whose property this mod is lets not forget. I believe these people will make the right decisions and continue to produce a robust, enjoyable mod to play, as they have for some time.

I suppose your right about some Americans

And you're indeed right as well that those who argue for a lancer nerf probably have a too extreme view of how to nerf the lancers, I personally hope that the devs have a nice and simple yet elegant solution to all of it so that everyone is happy.

 

[KillerMongoose]

I've observed lancers for the past few days and tried different classes to fight them, against infantry, there are a lot of variables and my results were very mixed. But as sword cavalry against lancer the difficulty level is ridiculously flip flopped, as Revan said, I'm quite competent at defeating a lancer as a cavalryman but even then, it took me a long time to hone that ability and even still it's annoying hard when all they have to do is sit back and stab stab stab away. It's just plain and simple not fair, and I'm a competent horseman, think of average horsemen or beginners. I don't get why this doesn't get across to people, it's not some mathematical equation, it's not a question of history or science, it's a simple matter of balance. And this is coming from a competent horseman capable of defeating lancers, not from a newbie who has little experience.

Push me,
and then just touch me,
so I can get my,
satisfaction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5xqChB4e6M

 

[Kator Viridian]

sit back and stab stab stab away

Thats the advantage they have and its still simple to take away, downblock and move closer, it dosn't take that many brain cells to figure out. The lance has range but suffers more than a bayonete up close, if a lancer is smart enough he'll move out of close situations which you probably encountered then try stabbing your brains out ... and this dosn't take too much figuring out either, I mean its not hard to grasp either end of the stick ... its mastering that takes times.

Tbh no matter what you do to the lances they will always be a favoured and useful class people won't be detered to spam them out, but it just gives reason to do so ... but thats besides the point.

The lancer will always be a favoured class because its something people refer and relate to, its where you find the most experianced of native players too in the cavalry classes ... so your more likely to find those hard hitters, those experianced circling cavalry, if your playing native you'd rarely come across a cavalry with sword (More likely to be a 2 handed weapon) but always the lance.

The same really goes here, the lancer is just generally prefered and after such a long time of MM being out your more likely to find those who have mastered(Although its not really that hard) the lancer than beginners.

I've seen it more often now that regiments will play lancers in a group, storm the server for a bit for some team play ... done it once with the 52nd and kinda wiped the server a little.

Even if the lancers are overpowered, it dosn't match the ease to master them, it takes a little time sure but no-where near as long as if you'd gone from native infantry to MM infantry, than Native lancer to MM lancer.

I know its not about the lancer useability but hey-ho thought it was worth mentioning.

Also those that go lancer are usually Wanting to be lancers for regiments, so will probably train more ... all in all I think the experiance level and quality of lancer players is higher than you'd find in infantry standard.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Everyone seems to be consistently forgetting or deliberately leaving out the factor of non lancer cavalry. We all know how easy it is to kill a lancer as an infantry, but as an experienced sword cavalryman I can say with entire certainty that the lancer class is very unbalanced.

 

[TADER_BROS_Ltd.]

...then use your gun and shoot them.

or swing away with a longer sword.

you seem to be consistently forgetting or deliberately leaving out the fact that you have access to other cavalry weapons.

nothing forces you to choose hussar, but it is quick, maneouvrable and effective if you so choose. Either way, you have little recourse to complain here, as I see it.

 

[KillerMongoose]

Non lancer cavalry have sabers besides dragoons with their carbines. The saber is at a reach disadvantage to bayonets but that's not a huge problem because the infantryman can't run away from a horse like a lancer or other cavalryman could. But versus a lancer other cavalry have more disadvantages than advantage. Even with a heavy cavalry sword you have to swing at just the right moment and be in just the right position. And a lancer just has to poke away at you without any skill at all. It's possible to do these maneuvers, I'm not denying that obviously, I do it as much as I can but it's a 100 times easier fight for a lancer because what I've seen lancers doing to counter me is just stabbing my horse then circling around for jabs or couches. The levels of skill required is very flip flopped.