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Information about developments at snowballing problem
- Thread starter mexxico
- Start date
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You know trying to balance this to the point where everyone has an equal chance of winning, and the conquest is slow may not make for a great experience. Some factions are going to have strengths others don't, and it shouldn't take a thousand years for one side to win.
Unless something else changed regarding wars and conquest, they usually stabilize to two or three megafactions by time 30 years rolls around.
Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Not sure about numbers, but Khuzaits are dominating the east side in my current 1.6.0 campaign at day 500 or so. They have got Tyal, Onira, and some castles from Sturgia, NE and SE. Aserai and Vlandia (playing as Vlandia vassal myself) are the strongest kingdoms currently though.Vlandia and Khuzait winrate be like:
Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Ok finally processed it. As mex said there really isn't a big difference in war length. I think one of the most interesting things in this data is the kingdom win percent. Take from it what you will, but always remember this is just one game worth of data for each patch and without player involvement so no guarantee for what the player experiences.
Also great stuff @Dabos37 !
Than you very much for this (I am going to copy some ideas from here to my own script :p ). While the war length media is not much bigger, I like how 1.6.1 looks more similar to 1.5.6 than any other version in terms of wars length.
I think the biggest challenge here is how to reduce declarations without making some kingdoms too passive. The problem I have seen is that these kingdoms which are totally surrounded like Empire kingdoms, are 100% of the time involved in wars, while kingdoms like Vlandia have some days of total peace. Anyway, as far as war length media continue getting increased, it will be pretty welcome.
Good timing!
I did a light analysis and here are some interesting results.
Considering that @mexxico 's format data can be interpreted as LEFT (factions that declares war) x RIGHT (faction incuring a declaration - marked as "declareD")
There were in total 79 declarations of war.
| War - Declare | |||||||||
| as | bt | kh | ne | se | st | vl | we | Total | |
| as | 2 | 8 | 1 | 11 | |||||
| bt | 3 | 1 | 3 | 7 | |||||
| kh | 4 | 6 | 1 | 11 | |||||
| ne | 1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 10 | |||
| se | 1 | 3 | 5 | 9 | |||||
| st | 4 | 5 | 1 | 10 | |||||
| vl | 2 | 3 | 6 | 11 | |||||
| we | 3 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 10 | ||||
| Total | 1 | 10 | 9 | 9 | 21 | 9 | 2 | 18 | 79 |
Globally it is quite balanced.
Only Battania seems to declare war less than the others.
| War - DeclareD | |||||||||
| as | bt | kh | ne | se | st | vl | we | Total | |
| as | 1 | 1 | |||||||
| bt | 1 | 4 | 2 | 3 | 10 | ||||
| kh | 2 | 2 | 5 | 9 | |||||
| ne | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 9 | ||||
| se | 8 | 6 | 2 | 5 | 21 | ||||
| st | 3 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 9 | ||||
| vl | 1 | 1 | 2 | ||||||
| we | 1 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 6 | 18 | |||
| Total | 11 | 7 | 11 | 10 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 10 | 79 |
This is far less balanced.
We can see that Aserai incured war declaration only once. Same for Vlandia, only twice.
Southern and Western Empire are the factions the most "bullied" by their neighbours.
If we cross-check the above with the winning rate, we can see that Western Empire is actually doing a great job
On the other hand, Aserai and Vlandia being the less disturbed, may allow them to suffer less from war exhaustion... Making them the best candidates for dominating the map on the long term (just assuming but...).
To go further...
If we consider those declarations from the player perspective, the game experience will be largely different from one faction to another.
Below are a little bit more complex tables.
Left table is counting all the declarations made (All - Declare).
Right is counting all the declarations incured (All - DeclareD).
If the player joins:
If we consider those declarations from the player perspective, the game experience will be largely different from one faction to another.
Below are a little bit more complex tables.
Left table is counting all the declarations made (All - Declare).
Right is counting all the declarations incured (All - DeclareD).
If the player joins:
- Aserai, her/his faction will make 19 declarations and incure 4.
- Southern Empire, her/his faction will make 16 declarations and incure 43!!
madnessario
Knight at Arms
Just to confirm, same run but you added the player to the faction at an earlier stage?
It seems strange to me that the number increased for the war declare also. Are vassal-player factions more aggressive code-wise?
The above results are based on mexxico's data, didn't run anything from my side.
I'm just trying to emphasize how the player would experience the game IF he joined one of the factions.
War declarations numbers are the same, I just added the peace declarations (pay tribute and receive tribute).
The only difference with peace declaration is that currently, the code doesn't allow the player to be notified about a peace proposal from ennemy, when in vassalage.
All the rest should be equal to AI behaviour.
mexxico managed to add a notification when the player is king, but not when a vassal.
more HERE
I think you are misunderstanding, he is just saying if a player was in those factions in the same game they would have very different experiences. Not that he joined as a vassal and these were the results.
Lets talk a bit about peace now, since many people have been complaining that there are never any period of peace.
Count of peace is how many time a kingdom has no wars going, and peace length is measured in days. It is very interesting that the empire factions don't get long periods of peace like the other factions do. But this does line up with the fact there are several more declarations for/against the empire vs other factions.
I don't think this is a problem at all and makes sense given the setting of bannerlord.
You are mistaken, there is a decrease to AI nobles starting votes when the player is a vassal and even more so when the player is a king.
Exactly!
Coherent with the results I got in my table.Lets talk a bit about peace now, since many people have been complaining that there are never any period of peace.
Count of peace is how many time a kingdom has no wars going, and peace length is measured in days. It is very interesting that the empire factions don't get long periods of peace like the other factions do. But this does line up with the fact there are several more declarations for/against the empire vs other factions.
Yeah, and it does give gameplay variety depending on the faction you join.
Oh I didn't know that there were such limitations in AI behaviour.
Thx for correcting.
Here is the sauce.
Thanks for alerting.
I checked situation and you are right there is something missing in code.
Peace / war voting is triggered by random even it is 100% supported. This does not mean it will be trigered just at that day. You can see probability is about 5% per clan to trigger peace voting if kingdom has 8 clans (each day), this probability reduces to 2% if player is in that kingdom. If player is in a kingdom there happen even less peace / war votings because we want player to trigger these if possible so we reduce probability in kingdom which player is member of so we give him a 5-10 days of time period generally. However there we should check if player is under mercenary service or not. I am fixing it. So if player is in mercenary service it will be triggered with higher probability as other kingdoms.
Fixed situation (I also changed probabilities a bit) :
madnessario
Knight at Arms
@Blood Gryphon @Spinozart1 Thank you for clarifying, I feel stupid now!
Thank you for this, I was not aware. I suppose the justification is that the player should also start some wars so it should even out in the end.
Are these data over a period of 10 years? As in, 10 days/year peace (on average) for Northern empire? If that is the case, I think they are good; I expected them to be worse based on all the "fuss".
Thank you for this, I was not aware. I suppose the justification is that the player should also start some wars so it should even out in the end.
Are these data over a period of 10 years? As in, 10 days/year peace (on average) for Northern empire? If that is the case, I think they are good; I expected them to be worse based on all the "fuss".
That table was just the average days for a period of peace, not necessarily per year. I've added in those metrics to the below table.
Anyone with 11 counts of peace periods will have the same number since its over an 11 year period. I think the more interesting thing to look at is the total peace time in the game. We see some drastic differences. Empire kingdoms spend only 10-14% of time at peace while everyone else ranges from 29% to 59% of time at peace.
A spicy one!
Thanks for the input ?
Dabos37
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Pretty interesting data about peace time. About Empire kingdoms, yes, for some reason they are always at war and would be great if they would be in line with other kingdoms.
Hopefully people do not start complaining about “how much peace” we have now, and endless wars are not as common as before (some content for peace time is required tough). I think that having some peace times is great for gameplay, and while Vlandia and Aserai seems a bit too passive, Battania, Khuzait, and Sturgia look perfect to me. Would be great if Vlandia and Aserai would get more aggressive while empire kingdoms more passive, but I suppose that this is pretty hard to achieve.
Making peace declarations harder to trigger or to be accepted by clans could help with wars being too short and some kingdoms peace time being too long, but not sure if this would hurt too much snowballing. Anyway, while this looks really hard to be balanced, it is looking pretty promising in my view.
Hopefully people do not start complaining about “how much peace” we have now, and endless wars are not as common as before (some content for peace time is required tough). I think that having some peace times is great for gameplay, and while Vlandia and Aserai seems a bit too passive, Battania, Khuzait, and Sturgia look perfect to me. Would be great if Vlandia and Aserai would get more aggressive while empire kingdoms more passive, but I suppose that this is pretty hard to achieve.
Making peace declarations harder to trigger or to be accepted by clans could help with wars being too short and some kingdoms peace time being too long, but not sure if this would hurt too much snowballing. Anyway, while this looks really hard to be balanced, it is looking pretty promising in my view.
Zorion_no
Sergeant
Generally speaking though, keep in mind that the datacollected afaik is from 0 player intervention.
While that is fine and dandy, and needed as it shows how the ai vs ai is balanced or not - the experience may be abit different when the player comes into play.
Since we are the "agent of chaos" and it cant account for our actions and how much it impact in the battles etc.
I totally dont mind war, and its needed for "fun" but since its a sandbox game it would be nice to not constantly be at war for decades.
(Unless you choose to not allign with a faction at all, and just be a trader etc).
While that is fine and dandy, and needed as it shows how the ai vs ai is balanced or not - the experience may be abit different when the player comes into play.
Since we are the "agent of chaos" and it cant account for our actions and how much it impact in the battles etc.
I totally dont mind war, and its needed for "fun" but since its a sandbox game it would be nice to not constantly be at war for decades.
(Unless you choose to not allign with a faction at all, and just be a trader etc).
This is indeed really hard to balance out. Some players would like continous fight, others would like more peace time to manage their fiefs etc. (though that part seems less featured).
By the way, I wouldn't say that Vlandia and Aserai are less aggressives, if you check the number of war declaration, it is quite well balanced overall.
The thing is that they are less targetted by other factions. Probably explaining why they have more and longer peace time.
