I believe this gun deserves to be implented in to ww2 chinabattlefield

[uio0000]

The FN Bar
the next most popular machinegun other than the zb-26 during the second sino-japanese war

http://www.gun-world.net/fn/fnbar/fnbar.htm
I can make the model.

 

[The Bowman]

I can make the model.

Good luck then.

 

[kongxinga]

Ah, the BAR. Thing is this is pretty late war stuff we are talking about, while currently we have a 1937 flavour and it was neither plentiful nor widely used, especially post war as ammunition was difficult to come by. You basically HAVE to be supplied directly by americans to get the ammo, else it was "Here's 5 rounds, make them last the war". I know it was used in some units some times, but an entire division fully equipped with Bars? Apart from X force I can't remember any units, but I know there were sprinklings of it in many places. Can anyone help out here?

Bar widely used? I can't seem to believe that. I think captured type 26 were widely used, and MG 34s saw some use too. Russian Mguns saw some use between 1939 till 41, after which ammo concerns limited use.

I know some of you will say that the communists captured a ton of Bars from fleeing and surrendered Nationalist units. True, but they never captured a single round of its ammo, implying

1. State department infiltrators sabotaging war efforts, resulting in the eventually supply stoppage, making these BARs expensive clubs, or literally a bar.

2. Soldiers following orders and emptying all their ammo into the enemy, then pretend surrendering to await a opportunity to escape or defect back.

 

[uio0000]

Ah, the BAR. Thing is this is pretty late war stuff we are talking about, while currently we have a 1937 flavour and it was neither plentiful nor widely used, especially post war as ammunition was difficult to come by. You basically HAVE to be supplied directly by americans to get the ammo, else it was "Here's 5 rounds, make them last the war". I know it was used in some units some times, but an entire division fully equipped with Bars? Apart from X force I can't remember any units, but I know there were sprinklings of it in many places. Can anyone help out here?

Bar widely used? I can't seem to believe that. I think captured type 26 were widely used, and MG 34s saw some use too. Russian Mguns saw some use between 1939 till 41, after which ammo concerns limited use.

I know some of you will say that the communists captured a ton of Bars from fleeing and surrendered Nationalist units. True, but they never captured a single round of its ammo, implying

1. State department infiltrators sabotaging war efforts, resulting in the eventually supply stoppage, making these BARs expensive clubs, or literally a bar.

2. Soldiers following orders and emptying all their ammo into the enemy, then pretend surrendering to await a opportunity to escape or defect back.

the bars is acutally built right in the end of ww1,there's nothing late war about it

1.FN Bar(Not the American one) was built inBelgium,modified to fit the 7.92mm mauser the chinese were widely using ,there were no shortage of bullets

2.The chinese first baught 5000 in 1933,the number rose to 9148 till 1937,after the war broke out,the natioanlist goverment imported another 8000,another 7412 were shipped through the The Burma Road

do a little research before you start jabbing,a'ight?!

 

[kongxinga]

Whoops wrong bar. Read BAR and immediately thought it was the a2 ones in x or y force. Reading comprehension needs work, my bad there. Although if you had a FN bar I can bet you would inexplicably be supplied with Springfield rounds instead, because that was the extent of the bad logistics.

Ive done my research thank you, now let's see yours? Just curious who was getting the FN Bars? That's a lot of bars ordered so I am sure many would have gotten them. Were they deployed as another lmg with bipod or were they actually used portably?  Are you sure on it being the 2nd most widely used mgun?

7.92 mausers were neither plentiful nor available at the right times. Relatively plentiful, yes, but no seas of them. Why do you think the destruction of the german stock after the Nazi surrender hurt the nationalists so much?

 

[uio0000]

Whoops wrong bar. Read BAR and immediately thought it was the a2 ones in x or y force. Reading comprehension needs work, my bad there. Although if you had a FN bar I can bet you would inexplicably be supplied with Springfield rounds instead, because that was the extent of the bad logistics.

Ive done my research thank you, now let's see yours? Just curious who was getting the FN Bars? That's a lot of bars ordered so I am sure many would have gotten them. Were they deployed as another lmg with bipod or were they actually used portably?  Are you sure on it being the 2nd most widely used mgun?

7.92 mausers were neither plentiful nor available at the right times. Relatively plentiful, yes, but no seas of them. Why do you think the destruction of the german stock after the Nazi surrender hurt the nationalists so much?

it's just like how zb.26 were deployed
yes,7.92 muaser were neither plentiful that's true,but this meant both zb.26 and FN Bar didn't have much to shoot,what are you trying to prove here,
acutally the nazi's stopped their aid way before they surrendered, and it didn't meant hurting the nationalist so much,china is also famous for not following copyright rules and irregular underground armories,so we didn't have to buy everything from the germans

here's a preview

 

[Doom Bunny]

Its.... colourful....

But on a serious note, that model looks good, just needs a good texture.

 

[Asadron]

is that the alphabet on the gun? 

 

[Herr_Thomas]

is that the alphabet on the gun? 

I lol'd

 

[uio0000]

is that the alphabet on the gun? 

I lol'd

i'll be working on the texture theses few days
(it will probobly look something like this)

btw thats how all models look in wings 3d without texture

 

[kongxinga]

Thanks UI for the info. For such a common gun it seems to have very little presence in memoirs, photos etc. I for one could have sworn that the 1925 maxim was the 2nd most common (but it may be only in warlord troops). The A2 american bar has a lot of presence, but usually in xy force (ie these bars came very late to china in the war), but good to hear about the other bar.

 

[zzs8mm]

and MG 34s saw some use too.

Show me proof...

 

[kongxinga]

Well ZZZ,

It is in the game under Central Army machine gun. Wiki (I know, sorry, best I could without going to the library) says NRA built copies of MG34 locally, but I have my doubts on that info. Web if you search for it has someone showing a KMT picture of a MG 34, but no pictures on its use.

I believe it is or a copy is on display too in the armed forces museum in Taiwan. Come to speak of it, I can't remember photos of soldiers using it (although I think it does pop up in old war films, but that is not history). Scepticism is good when dealing in this period.

Further browsing the net has gotten me 2 sides. One side claiming to have bought/ made (i dont think made is likely) mg34, other side saying there is no record of use. Not calling this one till i get better sources.

*Slowly going through the data at the Fukuo society, a reenactment group. If they can't give the answers nobody can. Mg 34 is in Steel panthers, but we cant trust gary grisby's sources too much.

** Sheesh, Fukuo wrote the article that says there is NO evidence of use in the German Divisions early war?? How did mg 34s show up even during the late civil war? Russians handing it out? Darn.

 

[zzs8mm]

Thanks for your input kongxinga,

I am part of the reenactment group, in the US though.

I agree there is not enough proof to be absolutely sure on the use of the MG34. And mueseums can get their facts wrong or juice it up a bit, so they are not always perfect in sources. The best source I trust is the person who owns www.chinesefirearms.com as I believe he is probably the most knowledgeable person on Chinese firearms.

I have seen pictures of KMT officials looking at a MG34 somewhere in Africa, I believe, but it still does not prove that it was used on the Chinese battlefield. But even I still doubt the MG34 were used at all on any place in China, even post war.

Not sure what you mean when Fukuo has an article on the evidence on the use of the German Divisions. I don't think I have seen it...

 

[Doom Bunny]

I think an MG34 would cause huge supply problems with its rate of fire, given how short Chinese supplies were and how bad infastructure was.

 

[kongxinga]

Fukuo has written an article (from the chinesefirearms site) that says there is no evidence of any use of mg34, ie they don't think mg 34 was ever used or made. So Fukuo is calling for no MG 34 This was in the article talking about the german divisions.

Now Fukuo is very accurate and reliable, to the point of the correct number of stiches etc, but why is there this folklore of usage of MG-34? And it is very specific to Mg-34 so no Mg-42s for example. For a long time I had accepted MG-34 use in central divisions to some extent. And no Fukuo comes up with this.

I hope WilliamBerne could help us out on this. He is following the strict rule of only adding weapons to ww2 china mod if at least 10 divisions were outfitted with it, and thus had good reason to add mg34 to central army lineup. Perhaps he has better sources, but I now I really want to get to the bottom of this.

Sorry for the minor derail on the thread.

 

[1701]

Maybe some captured Japanese weapons would be appropriate or are you only doing nationalists and rebels.

 

[zzs8mm]

I think an MG34 would cause huge supply problems with its rate of fire, given how short Chinese supplies were and how bad infastructure was.

It would be a problem only if it were ever used. There would have been MG34 in Chinese use if the manufacturing capability allowed it to be made, but China was limited to making the ZB26 instead of the more complex MG34.

There was a thread in the past about the MG34, and I showed WilliamBerne about the Chinesefirearms website, and to me, he seemed to agree that it was not used. He showed me a MG34 that is displayed in a museum in China, but I don't really like to use them as sources. But it is up to him if he will allow the use of it since he already created it for the game...

A MG15 (??I can't remember it if was MG15 or MG13) would be more suitable for the game. It was rare as it was used in the armored vehicles that came from Germany and used in China, but it could be set as a personnel weapons, but most likely without any historical accuracy.

 

[Doom Bunny]

Yeah, I was saying that it is less likely to be used than other weapons due to impracticalities.

 

[syconaught]

if people argue about the MG 34 or 42 not being there well lets see...where you there?