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Gibby's Video Thread
- Thread starter Gibby Jr
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Gibby Jr said:
Sorry we don't let you behave like animals, but entire threads filled with nothing but "you <adjective> <nationality> <insult>" is as boring as your NW video.
Orion said:Gibby Jr said:
Sorry we don't let you behave like animals, but entire threads filled with nothing but "you <adjective> <nationality> <insult>" is as boring as your NW video.
I mean I don't know anyone that doesn't think this forum is over-moderated. It's an observable fact that the current level of moderation has reduced activity on this forum (at least in the entire Guildhall) to an all-time low. This has been the case for several years now, and I recall the list-elections bringing out a lot of complaints about moderation in general. Like I said, keeping an area like the Guildhall clean and professional looking is fine and, I'd say, a good thing - it's the same on the FSE forum. What this forum lacks is an area where people can have their drama and make dumb posts, cuz a bit of drama is really just an extra level of engagement beyond the game itself. On FSE their Mess Hall, as it's called, is still moderated and anything that goes too far is dealt with pretty quickly and easily (racism, homophobia etc.) and regular insults are punished if the recipient makes an anonymous report about said insult, but it just allows people who want to throw **** at each other to do so publicly. This is, strangely enough, something that a lot of people enjoy, mainly as a spectator sport, dumb though it may be.
I mean look at this:
A thread made on the 25th of July with over 200 replies. There hasn't been a post on here that has garnered that much attention that quickly in as long as I can remember; the only posts that get comparable reply numbers on here are ones which have tournament signups and match scheduling on them. Fact is that FSE has way more activity because it allows people to be toxic and to challenge other users in a certain area and within certain limits; people that don't want to take part can avoid it entirely, but to be honest I think most people enjoy watching drama unfold. As much as you might disagree with what I'm saying, FSE is many times more active than this forum; the Mess Hall alone probably gets more posts per day than the entire Taleworlds forum - the only exception being the dev blog release day.
I love drama and I've been getting myself involved in as much as I can on FSE, so anecdotally I can talk about my own activity over there:
August 02, 14 posts
August 01, 1 post
July 31, 4 posts
July 30, 1 post
July 29, 2 posts
July 28, 7 posts
July 27, 3 posts
August 01, 1 post
July 31, 4 posts
July 30, 1 post
July 29, 2 posts
July 28, 7 posts
July 27, 3 posts
As far as your awful attempt at throwing shade goes, I already said NW is boring to watch; the fun part is the drama and trashtalking before and after the match
Gibby Jr said:HKP said:
I really enjoy groupfighting, maybe it's just bad for watching (it is)
NW has always been stronger than the native. A constant stream of new people, and people themselves are more adequate and disciplined. But after 8 years of playing, anyone wants to stop playing it. The regiment is not a team of 6 people, everything is more complicated there.
10 toxic apollons out of 10
10 toxic apollons out of 10
Because the TR forums have their own set of rules that differ from the regular forum rules. You know that, I know that, so what are you trying to prove here?ssalih said:
You've got two options here: back that up with some actual evidence or quit talking out of your ass. I hear this every time it comes up, but unless you can give some actual credence to what you're claiming then you might as well be blaming the decreasing activity on the declining population of Indian rhinos. Moderation has become less strict in recent years, yet activity continues to decline. Could this possibly be tied to something more obvious, like the game's age, fragmentation of the pub scene because of community matchmaking and large skill disparity jointly discouraging new players from investing themselves in the scene, or old-time players getting into their 20s and 30s then leaving the game behind as they move on in life? There are so many other factors contributing to the decline of community activity that it's just mind-numbingly ignorant to pin it all on oVeR mOdErAtIoN.Gibby Jr said:
As for the list thread deal, it went fairly smooth after it properly started. It was an initiative made in good faith with the goal to roll back restrictions put in place by previous moderators. You're seriously going to bring that up in the same paragraph where you're trying to convince me that you're horribly restricted?
I can't go hard on banter, I have to set some kind of standard.Gibby Jr said:As far as your awful attempt at throwing shade goes, I already said NW is boring to watch; the fun part is the drama and trashtalking before and after the match
Current forum moderation is far more lenient than when Alene was about
Orion said:
Well, the public statistics don't let me view things by board (since I was talking only about the Guildhall), but the general statistics show me that the FSE forum has more posts per day than the Taleworlds forum does:
This illustrates my point in two ways:
1) Despite the TaleWorlds forum having far more new members registering, far more page views per day and far more members being online each day it has fewer posts per day than FSE. Now, page views isn't that important in this discussion since most of those are people viewing Bannerlord discussions (I assume, don't have access to those stats) but for the TaleWorlds forum to be vastly superior in terms of online users and new users, yet to still have fewer posts per day is pretty tragic. Like I said, this is looking at the whole forum and isn't really what I wanted to show; most of those users are probably new people registering in response to the new Bannerlord gameplay - if you look at the July trend before the August 1st blog it definitely looks like this is the case. In these statistics, FSE has double the TW forum posts on several days and has significantly more on almost all days:
2) The FSE forums is only for Napoleonic Wars and offers nothing beyond that; the TaleWorlds forum is not only for Warband but has sections for NW, WFaS, modding and, of course, Bannerlord. All of these together, including the off-topic areas and everything else on this forum, don't produce the same number of posts per day as a considerably smaller (in terms of active users) and NW-only forum.
If you look at the general statistics here it's pretty obvious that activity is going down, don't know why you need some verification on that when it's obvious to anyone that clicks on the board and has been around for a few years.
Orion said:
If we are talking about "community activity", as you say in your post, then yes you are right that this isn't tied to forum moderation at all. Most of the points you give as an example don't have any link to the forums at all - I was talking solely about the forums, not the game's activity in general. Obviously the game's age, the fragmentation of the pub scene, the large skill disparity between new and veteran players and older players leaving the game are all infinitely more relevant to the game's decline than forum moderation. This is odd behaviour from you Orion, I wouldn't expect you to strawman me so blatantly; I didn't mention the game's activity in general at all. Now, of course all of these things create a general downward trend in total forum activity because there are fewer engaged players; my point is that this board, the Guildhall, has been reduced to the point where all the activity ends up being tournament threads, video threads and lists from the allowed list-makers. Find me a thread with any traction in the past 3 pages that isn't one of these things. Even if moderation is now less strict than it was, which I believe for the 2017-2018 period but disagree with for the 2015-2016 period, those couple of years of super strict moderation basically killed activity on here. Like I said, I can't check the HARD DATA on the Guildhall, but I can compare it to the FSE forums where, despite suffering the same problems with age and a declining community, their more limited in scope forum still gets more posts per day than this one.
Orion said:As for the list thread deal, it went fairly smooth after it properly started. It was an initiative made in good faith with the goal to roll back restrictions put in place by previous moderators. You're seriously going to bring that up in the same paragraph where you're trying to convince me that you're horribly restricted?
Another mischaracterisation (or misunderstanding) of what I said. I didn't argue against that initiative or say that it was a bad thing, I said that the list elections brought up a lot of complaints about moderation, as in the list thread(s) had a lot of discussion on the matter. This thread essentially devolved into that entirely:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,383496.msg9101789.html#msg9101789
My points is that TW forums are dead for public discussion related to Warband MP while the FSE forum is thriving with it's NW MP only discussions. SUCH A MYSTERY.
ever since mods cracked down the forums became unfun thats facts go look back at the WPL 1 banter thread its absolute gold you dont get **** like that no more
Pumpkin Lord
Surkan said:
You used to be mean more often, they couldn’t catch up with yo
Gibby Jr said:
I never said there wasn't a decline, I asked for evidence that "the current level of moderation has reduced activity on this forum," but based on your last post you and I seem to have different ideas of what constitutes "current." I'm not including moderation policy from 3 or 4 years ago, because 3 or 4 years ago isn't current to anyone but an archaeologist.
Let's not forget that the list threads are back due to relaxing of moderation policy. Further, a decline in the game's player base should have a strongly correlated effect on the activity of the game's board. I only brought up dropping population in the game because we're talking about activity on a board which is dedicated to discussion of that game. If fewer people are playing it, then naturally there will be fewer people who are interested in talking about it. You can call that a strawman if you want, I'll keep laughing.
Any public action I take as a moderator brings up lots of complaints, but what I've done as a moderator doesn't match up with the complaints we receive. People like bringing up old grievances, but there's nothing I can do about a warning someone received in 2015 or whatever. If you want to claim that current moderation policy is too little, too late then I would wholly agree with that. I'd also agree to an extent that prior moderators may have contributed to some degree to a decline in forum activity, though we might disagree on just how much. However, when you say "current moderation" then--to me--you're talking about the moderators of today. I'm sure you can see why that irritates me, considering my record so far as a moderator for this board.Orion said:As for the list thread deal, it went fairly smooth after it properly started. It was an initiative made in good faith with the goal to roll back restrictions put in place by previous moderators. You're seriously going to bring that up in the same paragraph where you're trying to convince me that you're horribly restricted?
Another mischaracterisation (or misunderstanding) of what I said. I didn't argue against that initiative or say that it was a bad thing, I said that the list elections brought up a lot of complaints about moderation, as in the list thread(s) had a lot of discussion on the matter. This thread essentially devolved into that entirely:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,383496.msg9101789.html#msg9101789
My points is that TW forums are dead for public discussion related to Warband MP while the FSE forum is thriving with it's NW MP only discussions. SUCH A MYSTERY.
Yes that is very obviously the case; my main point is somewhat elusively placed at the end of one of my paragraphs so I'll reiterate it here: "Like I said, I can't check the HARD DATA on the Guildhall, but I can compare it to the FSE forums where, despite suffering the same problems with age and a declining community, their more limited in scope forum still gets more posts per day than this one."Orion said:
It goes without saying that decreasing game activity (for the reasons you listed and we agree on) is going to create a decline in forum activity. My point is that NW has suffered the same downward trend in game popularity but still maintains a more active forum community, despite being a forum with a much more limited scope which deals with only one multiplayer module.
Orion said:As for the list thread deal, it went fairly smooth after it properly started. It was an initiative made in good faith with the goal to roll back restrictions put in place by previous moderators. You're seriously going to bring that up in the same paragraph where you're trying to convince me that you're horribly restricted?
Another mischaracterisation (or misunderstanding) of what I said. I didn't argue against that initiative or say that it was a bad thing, I said that the list elections brought up a lot of complaints about moderation, as in the list thread(s) had a lot of discussion on the matter. This thread essentially devolved into that entirely:
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,383496.msg9101789.html#msg9101789
My points is that TW forums are dead for public discussion related to Warband MP while the FSE forum is thriving with it's NW MP only discussions. SUCH A MYSTERY.
Orion said:
Unfortunately the limits of "current moderation" have never been tested or explored because everyone simply assumes it's the same as it was in the 2017/2018 period. I remember even the slightest bit of controversial discussion resulting in whole threads being locked and any drama/banter being shut down instantly. Now, as you say, this may no longer be the policy of the moderation team but that is the impression everyone has because of how moderation was conducted for those couple of years. I think you're better individually suited to a more discussion-oriented moderation policy than many past moderators and I think the fact that you're willing not only to engage with me but to throw a lil banter of your own into the mix is very telling of that. As Thunderbeu said above, those NA banter threads for tournaments were great and if I remember correctly they got shut down at one point and weren't allowed to exist anymore for future tournaments. Now, it may be the case that this ban is no longer enforced under the current moderation team, but like I said, the impression everyone has is that such things are not allowed because they were shut down so harshly in 2017/2018. I've always argued that drama is good for a competitive community and that without it the game becomes stale pretty quickly; it becomes a more "relaxing" experience, as there's less pressure without additional drama/trashtalking thrown into the mix, but it's less engaging to play in and to watch. Personally, I found the Senate vs FP group B match in the WIS 10x more interesting than the WNL7 finals just because there was an extra level to that match. AE vs Random Potatoes came with some beef back in WPL2, though only some of that was expressed in forum trashtalk, but if you go back to the real juicy stuff in 2015 those matches were far more interesting to watch because you knew that whoever won was gonna be chatting **** on the forum afterwards. Those extra stakes add a lot to the experience. That's why I think an area with a more lax moderation policy where such things can happen is a good idea. Unfortunately, I think that sort of thing has been denied and shut down for so long that even if such an area was created now it wouldn't be that effective at recapturing that drama. That's one of the main reasons I'm playing NW a lot now; the groupfights are enjoyable primarily because they are different to what I'm used to and there are a few new skills to learn, but the best part by far is the forum drama that I can watch unfold everyday and the extra stakes that come with every tournament. When two teams face off that have beef and a history, you know that whoever wins is gonna be spamming lists with their guys at the top and arguing for hours on the forums afterwards.
Ended up on a bit of a tangent there, but to bring things back to the topic, I uploaded a new video:
For what it's worth, we are considering for the new forum a move towards an internally-moderated approach for clans, tournaments, etc. where the moderators would be the users who are actually managing those groups/events. They would be responsible for handling day-to-day moderation of their boards, though the scope of their actions would be limited to their group's boards (i.e. they could ban someone, but only from accessing their boards). That is in contrast to the current setup for tournament boards where "moderators" for those boards aren't able to take user-level moderation actions, only post-level actions (edit, delete, lock). This would let subgroups of the community create their own rules, and the degree of oversight would be limited to enforcement of the forum's terms of service (removal of illegal content like links to pirated software, hate speech, etc.). The caveat is how these group boards are accessed, and we're still figuring out the specifics on that.
