Female Relatives Are Worth Less Than Half As Much As Males

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

highly doubt that you can kill 2200 units strong army with 370+ party.

Heh heh heh they won't have a 2200 or anywhere close sized parties when they fight me because I don't let them take the time to assemble. I take down assembling armies, sweep their parties and siege my target while their little baby parties stand and watch, then I do it again and again until the operation is done and I peace out with the money I got ransoming and pawning their drops.

 

[Apocal]

highly doubt that you can kill 2200 units strong army with 370+ party.

No, but you can safely stalk them until they disband, then pick off half of their numbers in one fight and the other half in a second battle.

 

[Althix]

No, but you can safely stalk them until they disband, then pick off half of their numbers in one fight and the other half in a second battle.

except when they march to your town. in 20 years when war begins AI create 2-3 armies, even if it is possible to kite one, the other will attack your town. the body count is all that matters.

 

[SlickMcDick]

In the game, women relatives that are married off leave the family. Women also die in childbirth--for some strange reason the only non-battle related medical condition in the game that kills people outside of old age (I guess testicular cancer has been cured in this universe). First, let me say that my intention for this discussion is first and foremost, what is good for gameplay. I hear a great deal of people arguing over what is "historically" accurate and it gives me a headache because (1) I was a history major and they're often wrong and (2) this entire game is historically inaccurate from top to bottom and games usually are. Usually claiming to not like something because it's historically inaccurate is just people trying to disguise their personal preferences as objective logic.

This is bad for gameplay because the most logical course of action for the player, and really every family if they were playing intelligently, would be not to marry off your female relatives. I love that in the game women can be critical roles for your kingdom and party in the form of generals, governors, scouts, medics, siege engineers, etc. However, this also means that the relationship gain from marrying them to another family is not even close to worth losing a valuable character. On the converse side, male family members are super valuable because when they get married, you get another valuable character in the form of their wife! You also get all of the children they produce! This makes male family members uber more valuable and also means that the best course of action for your female family members is to make sure they never marry.

A much better mechanic would be to either (1) make the relationship gain from marriage extremely valuable (for instance, perhaps make it so that families won't marry off their women to you unless you return the favor) or (2) make it so that in a marriage, who leaves their family is not determined by sex (i.e. maybe you can bargain for who is joining whose family or maybe the more valuable character gets to stay in their family). That way, men and women have a chance of leaving their old family and joining the new one. Personally, I'd prefer the latter case because I think it's much easier to implement and is better for game balance purposes.

The relation gain by marrying your female children off to another clan can be parleyed into convincing that clan to join your faction should you start your own kingdom.

This in essence allows you to recapture your family into your political control while gaining innumerable allies in the form of every lord and their children and grandchildren within a clan.

It works very well when used correctly in a machiavellian way.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

except when they march to your town. in 20 years when war begins AI create 2-3 armies, even if it is possible to kite one, the other will attack your town. the body count is all that matters.

There's no war for me EVER unless I choose to start it and it ends when I say so, because I'm not a king and I have no vassals.
As a result I have a lot of towns and need a lot of good governors and so Back on topic: It would be cool if I could marry my daughters and sister and bring in some bad boys to have more and more governors all over!

 

[Apocal]

except when they march to your town. in 20 years when war begins AI create 2-3 armies, even if it is possible to kite one, the other will attack your town. the body count is all that matters.

Firstly, even with the new adjustment to AI weighting of odds, if a large enough player party/army (370 for sure) follows an army near a town, the AI will generally break off the siege rather than risk an assault. You don't have to engage them in battle, usually. Just be close enough to count for purposes of accounting, that's enough.

Secondly, even if the first doesn't work there is almost no reason to care if the AI takes your town. Fighting and winning battles gives more of everything you get from holding a town. More money, more influence, more troops (from flipping prisoners). The one exception is a place to store spare troops and items.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

The relation gain by marrying your female children off to another clan can be parleyed into convincing that clan to join your faction should you start your own kingdom.

I doesn't though. It's a very very minor consideration in the AI deciding if and for how much they will join you.

 

[Althix]

More money, more influence, more troops

all of which is irrelevant because after 20 years you kinda have several mils in your pocket. what does matter is the recruiting ground which is your towns and villages. influence is also irrelevant because you should have 275+ charm anyway at this point.
so it all comes to how many lords lost in battle and how many lords left, and in this is where all your daughters come to play. Because the strength of the kingdom comes from lords, how many troops they have, and how fast they can replenish their troops' numbers.

 

[Noschkov]

In the game, women relatives that are married off leave the family. Women also die in childbirth--for some strange reason the only non-battle related medical condition in the game that kills people outside of old age (I guess testicular cancer has been cured in this universe). First, let me say that my intention for this discussion is first and foremost, what is good for gameplay. I hear a great deal of people arguing over what is "historically" accurate and it gives me a headache because (1) I was a history major and they're often wrong and (2) this entire game is historically inaccurate from top to bottom and games usually are. Usually claiming to not like something because it's historically inaccurate is just people trying to disguise their personal preferences as objective logic.

This is bad for gameplay because the most logical course of action for the player, and really every family if they were playing intelligently, would be not to marry off your female relatives. I love that in the game women can be critical roles for your kingdom and party in the form of generals, governors, scouts, medics, siege engineers, etc. However, this also means that the relationship gain from marrying them to another family is not even close to worth losing a valuable character. On the converse side, male family members are super valuable because when they get married, you get another valuable character in the form of their wife! You also get all of the children they produce! This makes male family members uber more valuable and also means that the best course of action for your female family members is to make sure they never marry.

A much better mechanic would be to either (1) make the relationship gain from marriage extremely valuable (for instance, perhaps make it so that families won't marry off their women to you unless you return the favor) or (2) make it so that in a marriage, who leaves their family is not determined by sex (i.e. maybe you can bargain for who is joining whose family or maybe the more valuable character gets to stay in their family). That way, men and women have a chance of leaving their old family and joining the new one. Personally, I'd prefer the latter case because I think it's much easier to implement and is better for game balance purposes.

So, i think you are right about the thing that female characters are not good implemented in the game.
But what you also have to concider is that in the context of this game it is not important to create a real picture of a medieval world. The goal is to create exactly that "historical accuracy" that most people know from TV-shows and so on. Sure someone who knows a lot about history will get some problems with many aspects of the game and see it as more of a fantasy world but for most people this game is more or less how they imagine the middle ages. (i expect that most people don't even know the differences in time periods some of this factions are located in according to arcitecture, unit details, and so on)
So, as hard as it souds the goal for developers has to be to get to historical accuracy that players expect because noone can force their players to study history just to get a more accurate understanding of the matter. It is easier for them to conform to the players expectations then the other way around. (just look at winged helmets from warband)

 

[Apocal]

all of which is irrelevant because after 20 years you kinda have several mils in your pocket. what does matter is the recruiting ground which is your towns and villages. influence is also irrelevant because you should have 275+ charm anyway at this point.

I agree most of those are irrelevant in the late game. That's why I said there was no reason to care if the enemy army takes your town. You can recruit from any other neutral town or friendly town. There is no reason to particularly favor one over another.

Just wait for the enemy army to disband, then kill the individual parties piecemeal, simple as. That's how you can take on an army of 2K+ with only like 200-300 dudes.

so it all comes to how many lords lost in battle and how many lords left, and in this is where all your daughters come to play. Because the strength of the kingdom comes from lords, how many troops they have, and how fast they can replenish their troops' numbers.

Why do you think daughters matter for this? Lords recruit as fast as they hit a settlement or draw from existing garrisons. They come to you if you persuade them -- and relations don't count for much there.

 

[Ananda_The_Destroyer]

Why do you think daughters matter for this? Lords recruit as fast as they hit a settlement or draw from existing garrisons. They come to you if you persuade them -- and relations don't count for much there.

He's trying to say that you lose too many vassals NPCs in battles (or over time) and then your vassal clans have less field parties...... so you marry your daughters into them to give them another party (and let them make babies)... but he said a buncha other stuff too that didn't fit in.

@Althix the problem with this is that you can just as likely have your faction clans thin out in a way that they have only females eligible for marriage, so the current system doesn't work at all.

Althix said:
highly doubt that you can kill 2200 units strong army with 370+ party.
BTW, I can absolutely do it if I need to. I could do it with a lot less the 370 too, probably just 100 khan's guards would be fine. I don't need to because of good planning and map speed.