Don't feel pressured Taleworlds

[RoboSenshi]

Oh yeah he did say that. I forgot. Well maybe a mod will get it in before they do.

He also said that they're a little on the perfectionist side, so you might disagree with Terco's comment about perfection but TaleWorlds doesn't.

Sadly, that's the source of my frustration.

 

[vicwiz007]

And keep that in mind: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg came first, if you must know the answer. However, I feel you are right for the most part. "Take as long as you want" while it sounds ideal, is just that- far too idealistic.

They leave lots of popular mod features out, like freelancer for example, but they don't just ignore it's popularity. For this I think they figured that the new army system and commander mode is good enough, based on Armagans answer about this in a Livestream.

Just one example. I am ready excited to see where this series goes, because it's so unique in that it was basically kept alive by total conversion mods. Warband was basically like a template.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I'm sorry guys, sometimes it's hard for me to express myself in Spanish...imagine doing it in English here with you. 

As vicwiz007 rightly points out, the egg comes first; it's essential to have the base game 100% squeezed out as much as possible. I do not want to generate polemic or controversy but from my point of view the native must set a standard of quality because otherwise we would find that the mod is better than the base game. Can it become a Mod better than the game it affects? The answer is a resounding yes. And this has already happened in the past, you only have to compare the possibilities in terms of mechanics of Warband vanilla and Nova Aetas to give an example among the great mods that exist for the franchise. Leaving M&B, total war regulars will know that THIRD AGE wouldn't have been possible if medieval total war 2 had been a mediocre and lame game. So in the Bannerlord case we have our hopes pinned on John.M.'s Kingdoms of Arda.

If there's a closed door, you'll have to open a breach and create a window. Waihti and zParsifal creating Diplomacy provided a series of mechanics, functionalities and features that were totally non-existent in the vanilla ... as did Motomataru with their formations, Caba`drin with his PBDO, Papa Lazarus with his Combat Animation Enhancement ... tree of troops, freelancer...among many others.

Literally created possibilities, not modify them and that is the essence of Modding, is an extension of the software that modifies an original by providing new possibilities, settings, characters, dialogues, objects, etc., through total conversions, partial, add-ons or artistic patches. That's why it burns my soul when I read comments "well, the modders will do it" referring to the lack of a feature or mechanics.

Taleworlds do not leave closed doors.

 

[Duh]

If there's a closed door, you'll have to open a breach and create a window. Waihti and zParsifal creating Diplomacy provided a series of mechanics, functionalities and features that were totally non-existent in the vanilla ... as did Motomataru with their formations, Caba`drin with his PBDO, Papa Lazarus with his Combat Animation Enhancement ... tree of troops, freelancer...among many others.

Literally created possibilities, not modify them and that is the essence of Modding, is an extension of the software that modifies an original by providing new possibilities, settings, characters, dialogues, objects, etc., through total conversions, partial, add-ons or artistic patches. That's why it burns my soul when I read comments "well, the modders will do it" referring to the lack of a feature or mechanics.

Taleworlds do not leave closed doors.

I think this is a misunderstanding of modding and what modders would consider closed doors. Essentially, "our" concerns lie mostly with what is hardcoded (can't be accessed directly, very difficult or impossible to change) and what is not (All the things we can change and create in non-hackey ways from the tools and code that is accessible to us. This will likely not include all things present in the game). To examplify - things like auto-generated scenes, cooperative scening and entirely different combat models may not be possible because the systems that could enable them are hardcoded / inaccessible. That is true even if scene generation is available via the editor and combat models exist in the game. In contrast to that, flying, fire-spewing dragons, tanks and planes may not be in the game... but might be possible nonetheless given the capabilities of what is accessible.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

Spoiler

If there's a closed door, you'll have to open a breach and create a window. Waihti and zParsifal creating Diplomacy provided a series of mechanics, functionalities and features that were totally non-existent in the vanilla ... as did Motomataru with their formations, Caba`drin with his PBDO, Papa Lazarus with his Combat Animation Enhancement ... tree of troops, freelancer...among many others.

Literally created possibilities, not modify them and that is the essence of Modding, is an extension of the software that modifies an original by providing new possibilities, settings, characters, dialogues, objects, etc., through total conversions, partial, add-ons or artistic patches. That's why it burns my soul when I read comments "well, the modders will do it" referring to the lack of a feature or mechanics.

Taleworlds do not leave closed doors.

I think this is a misunderstanding of modding and what modders would consider closed doors. Essentially, "our" concerns lie mostly with what is hardcoded (can't be accessed directly, very difficult or impossible to change) and what is not (All the things we can change and create in non-hackey ways from the tools and code that is accessible to us. This will likely not include all things present in the game). To examplify - things like auto-generated scenes, cooperative scening and entirely different combat models may not be possible because the systems that could enable them are hardcoded / inaccessible. That is true even if scene generation is available via the editor and combat models exist in the game. In contrast to that, flying, fire-spewing dragons, tanks and planes may not be in the game... but might be possible nonetheless given the capabilities of what is accessible.

Duh, with all the affection and respect I have for you; why did you decide to create Moneylenders & Landowners and Seafaring then more than the reason you found a locked door in Native? ...of that kind of lock I'm talking about.

 

[Duh]

I think this may mostly be a language thing, but I created them because I could - i.e. "the door was open" (and because the bank was a community request ). There are, however, plenty of things that cannot be done with conventional modding in MB, WB and various other titles. These are the limits or "closed doors" that modders are worried about. What they can do with the game rather than what is in the game.

Indeed, a fair few modders have ripped things out of the native game, because they wanted to build and use their own systems instead.

Duh, with all the affection and respect I have for you; why did you decide to create Moneylenders & Landowners and Seafaring then more than the reason you found a locked door in Native? ...of that kind of lock I'm talking about.

That's fair, it just seemed like you were talking about the concerns of modders specifically. Your closed doors are our potential

 

[RoboSenshi]

I think I get his point. Bannerlord should ship with the features of "essential mods" Diplomacy, PBDO, KAOS, etc. So modders don't have to worry about things that were already "patched up" in Warband. That way they can focus on adding in more complex and interesting features. If that's what he's saying, I totally agree.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I think I get his point. Bannerlord should ship with the features of "essential mods" Diplomacy, PBDO, KAOS, etc. So modders don't have to worry about things that were already "patched up" in Warband. That way they can focus on adding in more complex and interesting features. If that's what he's saying, I totally agree.

Spoiler: with the permission of Orion

#nomorelanguagebarriers 

 

[RoboSenshi]

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

I think I get his point. Bannerlord should ship with the features of "essential mods" Diplomacy, PBDO, KAOS, etc. So modders don't have to worry about things that were already "patched up" in Warband. That way they can focus on adding in more complex and interesting features. If that's what he's saying, I totally agree.

So what you're basically saying is that they should just add more features. The examples you gave won't actually help modders much since they're just utilisations of the code.

 

[NPC99]

I think I get his point. Bannerlord should ship with the features of "essential mods" Diplomacy, PBDO, KAOS, etc. So modders don't have to worry about things that were already "patched up" in Warband. That way they can focus on adding in more complex and interesting features. If that's what he's saying, I totally agree.

Bannerlord has been designed to allow the player to load multiple mini-mods/functions at the same time, letting each player customise their own game. I don't want certain popular mods/features in my Warband/WFaS games and I'd hate to have them all jammed into Bannerlord without an on/off toggle. TW expect modders to add optional features to Bannerlord, catering for minority tastes.

 

[RoboSenshi]

Fair point. Bannerlord already has aspects of Diplomacy and KAOS but I get where you're coming from.

I think I get his point. Bannerlord should ship with the features of "essential mods" Diplomacy, PBDO, KAOS, etc. So modders don't have to worry about things that were already "patched up" in Warband. That way they can focus on adding in more complex and interesting features. If that's what he's saying, I totally agree.

So what you're basically saying is that they should just add more features. The examples you gave won't actually help modders much since they're just utilisations of the code.

In a sense yes. Features that the game would feel empty without. Anyway, from what I can tell, the devs are doing fine with that.

 

[AJIexander]

Nobody puts pressure on Tale Worlds. Fans just worry about their development team and we will stand behind them with a wall. It's just scary that Bannerlord, which has no analogues, may never get out of constant rework and lack of confidence of the team in its work. Instead to release the game as it is, they work hard and hard on it, it is commendable. But this strategy has driven the developers into a trap. They have been making the game too long and now releasing it in the state in which it is located they are afraid. Because fans can fall asleep them The negative feedback was due to the fact that they made the game for 6 years and the output was not what everyone expected. Tale Worlds can still play the game for 10 years but they are not a blizzard and not a CD project they don’t have the means and the developers develop the game three times scratch ... Arman likes these studios, he said, but TW doesn’t have so much money and developers to be equal to them. I respect TW very much, there is no better team of developers. TW works without a publisher, this is not great for them uncles with thick wallets, TW does not cut games for 1000 DLC, TW makes one of the best games in the world of the Middle Ages, TW does not put a huge price on their games, TW listens to the wishes of the fans in the development plan of the game, TW cares about modelers and most importantly TW does not make games for money, they do not what you can sell, but what you like them and those like us.

In general, in any case, I support TW, even if they have been doing bannerlord for another 10 years, but I don’t think it will be beneficial.

 

[Shaxx]

Yea, no need to feel pressure at all. I mean it is not like if the game isn't out in 2020 when the PS5 launches that Bannerlord's development will have started prior to and outlived an entire generation of consoles.

Nor is it like that CD Projekt Red (a very similar company) is close to having released two triple A titles inside the development span of Bannerlord's production cycle, the Witcher 3 (game of the year) and Cyberpunk 2077 (future game of the year). So no sweat.

Granted CD Projekt Red currently has about 8 times the amount of employees, but that was not always the case. That number has ramped up a lot from the sales of previous games that they released, see it turns out if you release games people buy them with money, you can then take that money and hire more developers to make the next game sooner, bigger or better as desired.

 

[Kentucky 『 ＨＥＩＧＵＩ 』 James]

CDPR has always been a bigger company than taleworlds and has had access to much more skilled developers from all over the world, so don't think that's a particularly good comparison. Taleworld's's main mistake was announcing the game when it was still mostly in the concept phase. I mean if they decided to announce it in 2015 it wouldn't have been much of a surprise to anyone, but at the very least it'd prevent the existential dragging feeling you get when you remember how the game was announced 1/3 of your life ago.

Also I'm really tired right now so every time I try to type anything my fingers automatically decide to write "warband sucks".

 

[FBohler]

Rushing a game out of the gate before it's done is a certain failure.

This doesn't mean taking forever will deliver a perfect game, by any means!

 

[RoboSenshi]

There's absolutely no way the game won't be out by 2020. I can bet money on it. There just ain't no way

 

[Sundeki]

There's absolutely no way the game won't be out by 2020. I can bet money on it. There just ain't no way

 

[killer-blead]

There's absolutely no way the game won't be out by 2020. I can bet money on it. There just ain't no way

Oh boy I hope this doesn't jinx it.

 

[Shaxx]

CDPR has always been a bigger company than taleworlds and has had access to much more skilled developers from all over the world, so don't think that's a particularly good comparison.

CD Projekt Red has only ballooned relatively recently, in 2011/2010 (around when Witcher 2 was released) they were significantly similar in size to Taleworlds. In 2015 that all changed with the Witcher 3, which they could have aimed to make twice as big, twice as long or kept redesigning the game's pine cones for the 87th time ad-infinitum but instead chose not to in order to meet a reasonable release window. They made a ton of denars and hired a metric ton of new employees to make their next game, which is one to two years away from release despite being a significantly larger project than than the Witcher 3 or even Bannerlord for that matter and all of it is thanks to actually releasing games for people to buy.

If Taleworlds fails to release the game at the 10 year mark (2020) one has to ask if they will really even be able to call themselves a game studio anymore. I mean, what kind of game studio can't manage to release a single game inside the span of a decade?

And With Fire and Sword/Viking Conquest do not count, those were basically just glorified mods they helped publish and did not develop themselves.

Taleworld's's main mistake was announcing the game when it was still mostly in the concept phase. I mean if they decided to announce it in 2015 it wouldn't have been much of a surprise to anyone,

I think if they announced it in 2015 people would still expect the game by 2016/2017 considering they started in 2010 as evidenced here, here (a 2010 Bannerlord hire) and here (although in a different language in this last one he mentions starting in 2010).

There's absolutely no way the game won't be out by 2020. I can bet money on it. There just ain't no way

Either it will be or they will close their doors.