Discussion Thread: Gamescom 2017 Media

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Grey_Warden said:
What I really don't understand is the problem with feints looking unrealistic. Alright, they do, so what? It may have slipped your notice, but Warband is NOT a realistic game and if it tried to be, then failed miserably at doing so. Anyone denying that should really brush up on their history or perhaps start questioning their sanity, but that's beside the point. I simply fail to see how the lack of certain visual appeal can make an otherwise engaging and profound (takes literally thousands of hours to master the stuff) mechanic unsuitable for a game like M&B. In my opinion, M&B is enjoyed for what it is, a game that doesn't try to be realistic that offers the easy to learn, but hard to master mechanics enjoyed by casual and competitive players alike. And as a representative of the latter, I can assert without a shadow of doubt that removing feinting from the game will indeed make the game way less suitable for competitive play and ruin it for, while not the majority, but a considerable part of the community nonetheless. And doing so just for the sake of an unrealistic game looking a teenie-weenie more realistic is a bit of a dubious move if you ask me.
P.S. Gotta agree that the chain attack thing does sound curious, but with the hiltspamming mechanic already in place, it will hardly add any depth to the combat system. It might make spamming more accessible to newer players at best.

I never claimed that Warband/Bannerlord are or should be 100% realistic games or focus entirely on realism. However, if you give me HUMAN characters and then make them move like aliens, forgive me if I would like to see animations that resemble humans. I don't think I should question my sanity for that.
 
Gab-AG. said:
As far as I remember  chaining gives you a speed advantage as well, but don't take my word for it, not entirely sure. Yes, for very experienced players a duel could  last a long time if none of them used feints, holds don't look -as- stupid as feints and they're not much of an issue for me. However, I'm sure there must be an alternative to feints in order to confuse the opponent and avoid the fight lasting hours, or even keep them without making them look so dumb. Those animations are utterly ridicolous.

Yea, I believe they did say chained attacks would be faster, but they would still be ineffective for the same reason that chambers are -> they are very telegraphed attacks, especially in Bannerlord's case because you wouldn't be able to feint out of them.

DanAngleland said:
Why do you imagine it is an "issue for newer players"? I know full well how to feint and have played the game for years; it sounds as if you are dishonestly trying to brand critics of feinting as noobs or as people who are rubbish at the game.

Certainly not my intention, but you must ask yourself why the competitive community that has played nothing but the pure combat side of the game can unanimously agree on how valuable feints are. Feints do make the combat more difficult and more complex, that's a fact, not an opinion. Now whether they should be removed because they look completely stupid and may be unfair because they look glitchy at times is a totally legit argument, one that could be corrected by TW actually making a better working and fully intentional feinting system like many games do now, especially fighting games that are made for pure combat (which is what mp pvp usually is).

DanAngleland said:
Also people equating realism with being bad for gameplay....It looks bad, makes playing the game feel bad- it is bad for gameplay, for those of us for whom the enjoyment of the game doesn't revolve around duelling. If something is incongruous with reality, then it can be detrimental to gameplay. We expect certain things because we are fighting with human avatars and feinting just doesn't look right.

You are the one misrepresenting us here, we are not saying realism = bad gameplay (that's only the trolling idiots like Thunderbeu), but rather that some aspects of reality would make for very **** gameplay, while other aspects of reality would actually improve gameplay. I agree with you, realistic aspects are generally good for a game like this, but when realism results in worse gameplay than a less realistic but more balanced, challenging and enjoyable alternative, realism isn't always the best way to go for a game. Now I suppose those things are subjective, but that's why we are having this discussion.
 
Gab-AG. said:
Grey_Warden said:
What I really don't understand is the problem with feints looking unrealistic. Alright, they do, so what? It may have slipped your notice, but Warband is NOT a realistic game and if it tried to be, then failed miserably at doing so. Anyone denying that should really brush up on their history or perhaps start questioning their sanity, but that's beside the point. I simply fail to see how the lack of certain visual appeal can make an otherwise engaging and profound (takes literally thousands of hours to master the stuff) mechanic unsuitable for a game like M&B. In my opinion, M&B is enjoyed for what it is, a game that doesn't try to be realistic that offers the easy to learn, but hard to master mechanics enjoyed by casual and competitive players alike. And as a representative of the latter, I can assert without a shadow of doubt that removing feinting from the game will indeed make the game way less suitable for competitive play and ruin it for, while not the majority, but a considerable part of the community nonetheless. And doing so just for the sake of an unrealistic game looking a teenie-weenie more realistic is a bit of a dubious move if you ask me.
P.S. Gotta agree that the chain attack thing does sound curious, but with the hiltspamming mechanic already in place, it will hardly add any depth to the combat system. It might make spamming more accessible to newer players at best.

I never claimed that Warband/Bannerlord are or should be 100% realistic games or focus entirely on realism. However, if you give me HUMAN characters and then make them move like aliens, forgive me if I would like to see animations that resemble humans. I don't think I should question my sanity for that.
Yet again, it's a matter of priorities. Would you rather see a silly looking mechanic with lots of depth and variety or a more realistic down-to-earth one that makes it very easy to reach a level at which a fight between two experienced players will come down purely to patience (this can already be a bit of a problem at the top level now and simplifying the gameplay even further certainly isn't going to help it)? To me the answer is obvious. If Taleworlds are able to find a happy mean that will please both sides of the issue, I'll be quite pleased as I do have admit that Warband feints look really..."special". However, what we have been shown so far is little short of dumbing down what has the potential to be one of the best competitive melee combat systems ever conceived.
 
Seem to have the same discussion in two threads here (https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,369231.0.html), but I'll kind of repeat here in case people don't look at that.


It is entirely possible to implement a feinting system that looks good and adds a lot to gameplay. It simply did not exist in this way before. Feinting might get slightly slower, but the real issue is the animations and movement.


As far as attack chaining being competitively useful in MP, it is very hard to tell without having actually played with it. Personally, I think it will add more depth and will be useful to some degree.
 
Just to throw in here on feinting. I think we need to clear up what which version of feinting.

I really like attack canceling deep into the attack swing because it makes the game feel in your control, whoops I'm not going to hit my weapon first, I can still pull out and block, great.

What I dislike personally are the feints linked in the video on the other thread. It isn't even a 'realistic' thing, it is an outsider looking at the game and thinking it is a buggy pile of garbage. Yes, you can train your eyes to find the attack animations smoothing out at 100+ fps, great, but will people stick with a game when they see that kind of movement coming at them? What it does is make the game look broken and poorly designed because the designed mechanics don't work.

The flip side of the problem is players getting too good at blocking. Early on we were fine, you could feint normally, have some good timing, make them miss you by back stepping, and eventually land a hit. Skill level and game mechanic knowledge got off the charts though, and you end up where we are now, you really have to break the game to move on.

For Honor has this issue right now. The design out of the gate is too easy to defend basic attacks and there are huge punishments off defensive counter hits. The game then is broken because if you attack you get demolished, so it is in your interest to sit there and block, so both players stare at each other for a while and do nothing. Eventually they had to come up with broken things so you start to see 'unlock tech' and zone attacks and other things that fundamentally break the designed systems. There is currently a lot of hate directed at the game due to that and many people quit a game they were otherwise excited to play.

Anyway so the trick we want here is to get people playing in a designed system and not breaking it as hard as it is currently being broken. Obviously this is difficult since I could argue that every other melee game has basically tried some variation on it and imho failed at beating it.

War of the roses = bad engine so didn't work, but differing armor values and no haft hits. Had potential but their numbers were **** so it didn't work. Haft hits only felt too hard to land but that might have been a product of their engine not registering blocks/hits well.
Vikings = charged attacks, basically exaggerating the small 'golf swing' of warband so it charged up more. The issue here was if you charged up it made direction trivial, the charge time was so long even a beginner can get their weapon there in time to block.
Chivalry = Had it's own issues but one of those imho was defense too easy and not enough ways to overcome it, so people once again were breaking hitboxes and other things. It didn't have all the mechanics warband had in place to stop insta hits and other things either.
For honor = described above but defense too easy, counter hits too punishable, defensive game that was no fun to play or watch (despite being a beautiful game)
Of Kings and Men = Added attack 4 more attack directions at the diagonal and another type of kick (didn't know the difference in what they did) and some other changes. This was the best to almost being right but they did overly slow back pedaling which made you get 'stuck' close to people and have to spin, spin, spin, and just felt like an 'almost warband' to the point you almost just wanted warband. Diagonals didn't really do much except make it a touch harder to control imho, but I only have a few hours at it.

So yeah, we've also had 7 years of games trying to make a better warband and honestly failing. I feel the best kinds of games are slightly attack favored to keep the game play moving and reward the initiator. I like what they are trying to do here though.  I really, really think that hyper feinting has to go and the feint must be something that still will work though.

I don't think combo swings are going to work much. It seems like you will just get burst damage, land one hit and you get another one, and another one, and another one, until they block. If anything it will upgrade spam and punish beginners even more. An intentional air slash into a faster attack might be a new timing window to play with however.

I feel like I've kicked around ideas for how to improve the warband combat (because I quit sort of bored with it in terms of dueling) and I just can't for the life of me find it.

The best I can think of is to have a variety of weapons that have different attack animations, timings, and properties to keep it interesting. This way skill would be in learning to attack and defend against various weapon match ups. Not having a 'best in class greatsword' but instead equal, yet different, top weapons.

Also would like the equivalent of a fighting game throw, move forward and do slight damage and take initiative away from someone that is defending too much, hit it while they are blocking, this way you can feint into throw if you move into someones space.

So, I think the answer is warband is basically like, right there, and just needs some cleaning up and a throw, and more weapon variety, and it will be golden.

*edit* also have to not break 2 + vs 1 scenarios for the 'real' gameplay for added difficulty.
 
Reapy said:
I feel like I've kicked around ideas for how to improve the warband combat (because I quit sort of bored with it in terms of dueling) and I just can't for the life of me find it.
in the warband beta, we had a new game to play every 2 weeks with the patch. So many good mechanics were added to fix oddities in that time period and make the combat we have now. They listened to and responded greatly to player feedback. I wouldn't have any worry about them ignoring people, imho they simply haven't gotten there yet.

Oh also when they say parry, I THINK they are referring to a mechanic that was in beta a few patches, where if you tap right click instead of holding it you got this sort of swap away animation that was supposed to act differently than a standard block. My issue with it was that you usually tap block anyway and don't hold down so it ended up being the default method of defense rather than skill based.

Wotr, vikings, chivalry, and kingdoms rise, all have lessons to offer and learn from. Probably melee battlegrounds when/if that comes out and also crpg (though i haven't played it in its latest iterations).

For example, I used to think that held strikes working like they do in warband, but having a longer charge time, would add a lot to the combat, then I played vikings for a moment and saw that it just completely obliterates any chance of confusing someone's block direction because you have to hold the weapon out for so long in one direction, its comically easy to block.  In order for that to work you would have to add another mechanic like charging up your blocks as well or something.

Wotr had some interesting ideas but unfortunately the engine execution of it was so bad that it was impossible to judge if the mechanics were good or not! They did get sprinting right and do a version of warbands. I remember arguing for it on the forums with them. In alpha they had a sprint hot key and a recharging sprint meter. I know some people are doing a fist pump of YES, THIS IS THE WAY, but in practice you ended up jousting with other players, hold sprint, hold a direction attack and run at them while attacking and you basically play the game every half second like you have a speed boost power up going all the time. It really broke things.

The gears of war rodeo run might work out, but I like the way they have it now a lot, it keeps sprint as something you might enter combat with once to alter things a little bit, but doesn't make the game into a dark souls dodge roll fest or a ww2 boom and zoom dogfight.

In my mind good melee was about controlling your space and range, which is another thing added in the warband beta. At first you could advance much faster than you could go backwards, this resulted in only allowing you to control your space going forward. People argued about it endlessly, but they left us with a really fast backspeed, and yes it does allow backpedaling shenanigans, but it also lets you better control your space around you and had added a lot to the game.

Chivalry had no weapon sweet spots, another feature added in the warband beta. They had issues with this (as I told the guy in alpha, to be dismissed... again) where when players discovered they could do full damage at the immediate start of their weapon animations.  This was compounded by the fact that when looking down the player model's torso bends forwards and down too, making overhead attacks basically start inside other players models, giving them instant and fatal attacks with no chance to defend yourself.

Another issue I had with chivalry was not using full hit interrupts. In chiv you could only interrupt another player if you hit them during their start up animation, which was very short. This was an intentionally design choice by the creator and I can respect it for that, he wanted his one handed weapons to be able to swing faster than the two handed ones. With full interrupts the very fast weapons could constantly poke a slower weapon user and prevent them from ever swinging.

What I didn't like about it was as a 2 handed user I could then effectively ignore what my opponent was doing. If dueling a person you could simply health tank them, I know they had less health than me, so all I had to do was just swing at them while taking damage and eventually kill them. In warband I love the race to first touch and being able to judge and confuse attack priority is a pretty amazing dance that was missing from chivalry. (Though as in beta we will see people angry about 2h and 1h swing speed)

Wotr did do the weapon head and shaft alternative damage on some weapons. I thought at first this was a novel idea, but the risk/reward of the difficulty of doing damage was way off. Again, hit and collision were the big issues with wotr so it might have been the net code, but it was pretty hard to find the right range for damage. I always had the thought too that if this were real life i could pull or extend my arms to get the axe head on target rather than swing like a robot the same way every time. That is hard to control/animate so it makes sense to extend the hitbox down the shaft a bit.

I think it could be an interesting mechanic, just would need a lot of testing and good hit collision, maybe. I think it would be something more interesting on polearms only though.

For my own suggestions, I wish they could come up with a way to reduce feint spam, like the modern pro feint spam. I remember playing around with it and concluding that it's really hard to do effectively and a great skill but it made the game into something I didn't want to look at. I honestly don't know how to correct it though unless you introduce some heavy block lag in the animation department, which would break some fundamentals, but maybe there is a solution out there, or just something we have to live with.

A more subtle suggestion would be to add an interrupt when you bump into someone that has been holding their attack for a few seconds. There was always a weird stalemate when someone has their weapon held chambered and your weapon is in the block position, you both kinda have to stand there until the attacker lets go of his attack. You can sorta slip away or twitch your block to force an attack but it is still a sort of awkward stalemate.

I'd love to see a ton of improvements to mounted combat, I'm really excited if they can do a lot there as I feel it is a really unexplored area of combat that could do with a lot of change or new mechanics.

I think deep down for on foot combat I think different attack stances for different weapon types would be the biggest change to combat that would keep the combat as excellent as it is now while introducing a ton of variety and new angles to discover.

Also more love for shield use, a way to make it more actively interesting. It should still be easy to use but perhaps have some benefits for direction blocking (like was attempted to add more durability to your shield when direction blocked).

Anyway, I know tl;dr post, but if you read this part its that taleworlds came up with all the mechanics that actually made this melee game as good as it is, and were open to experiments and player feedback in their open beta of warband. I have no doubt when they turn their focus on bannerlord combat they will pick up where they left off.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,337148.msg8011062.html#msg8011062
No idea if this is what you are referring to, but I came across it earlier today.
 
DanAngleland said:
If you look at the video, at the time they talk about it (8:27), he is feinting.

Ohh you are right, he is really feinting there. So they didn't remove it? But made it slower. I think this looks better than warband's one.
 
John.M said:
Reapy said:
I feel like I've kicked around ideas for how to improve the warband combat (because I quit sort of bored with it in terms of dueling) and I just can't for the life of me find it.
https://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,337148.msg8011062.html#msg8011062
No idea if this is what you are referring to, but I came across it earlier today.

Whoops, meant I couldn't think of anything good mechanically to put in. I guess I've done my pages of random thought over the years heheh
 
Gab-AG. said:
They already added more complexity to the combat as far as I know, with the chained attacks and whatnot. I don't think feints are really a need, more like a pain in the ass both for those who like to see realistic combat, and the new players who meet an experienced guy with a 2 handed swords that starts spamming the heck out of them with movements that shouldn't be possible, confusing them to a point they don't even know what to do and just get butchered.
Chained attacks only reward the player that lands a hit since the follow-up will come out quicker and will have a different animation than a standard attack. That feature is very snowball-y in nature and I don't think it will matter that much in a duel between experienced players. As far as fainting or animation cancelling goes, well, you don't need to look further than Dark Souls 3 which removed that feature and that made combat stale, it devolved into spacing and punishing whiffs promoting an entirely passive playstyle while actively punishing an aggressive approach to PvP. Now I know that our beloved Mountain Blade isn't Dark Souls, so I'm suggesting on waiting until players can get their hands on the game and give feedback. It's hard to anticipate whether fainting adds or detracts from the combat, so I hope that Taleworlds waits for the feedback and then makes a decision.
 
Right. Obviously whichever version of fainting is implemented, a lot of people will be unhappy.
So it doesn't really matter, devs, just flip a coin and be done with it. Most of us don't care, we are more into epic battles than dueling exploits.
 
MadVader said:
Right. Obviously whichever version of fainting is implemented, a lot of people will be unhappy.
So it doesn't really matter, devs, just flip a coin and be done with it. Most of us don't care, we are more into epic battles than dueling exploits.
I'm far more interested by the addition of real formations and what looks like a much better combat AI.
The Shield wall advancing with shields raised and spears primed looked VERY impressive to me.

Overall while I can understand people being upset about the time it's taken Bannerlord to get this far I am VERY satisfied with what I'm seeing.
 
I said it before and I'll say it now. Feint spam in warband was a cancer and was not even intentional. If you honestly believe that a sequence of cancelled attacks, which can be macroed, abused with low or high ping, put you in a disadvantage with a less than 144hz monitor is balanced, then you are wrong. I doubt feinting is gone for good, but if it exists at a slower pace, then thats a very welcoming addition. Because it's such a cancer in Warband that can honestly be compared to Chivalry's ballerina mechanics.
 
I really do have to approve of the way the attack animation works now.
Everything seems slower and more focused from one swing to the next, no more instantly going from block to swing with no delay.

Watching Purzelblume kill those archers with a Falx (love that addition btw) was very fun.
 
Johan_Stormcloak said:
https://youtu.be/1dtlPH6hvM0?t=229

I noticed this animation for running into something when the player is on horseback. It's a nice little detail.
Seems like the rider gets a bit of whip-lash from a sudden stop.
Very nice.
 
Reapy said:
So yeah, we've also had 7 years of games trying to make a better warband and honestly failing. I feel the best kinds of games are slightly attack favored to keep the game play moving and reward the initiator. I like what they are trying to do here though.  I really, really think that hyper feinting has to go and the feint must be something that still will work though.



Nice analysis about the other games combat weaknesses, they are totally true and filled us with frustration, making warband irreplaceable :sad:
 
I don't want to be a sour guy here but I've seen very little questions answered about multiplayer. But don't think that I am not grateful for the questions that have already been answered I think they're doing a good job.
 
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