Dealing with late-game attrition (how to rebuild my army?)

[thermocline]

Hey guys, new POP3 player here (and new to M&B as well). I'm on my first POP game and wondering how you guys deal with attrition in the late game when you're fighting constantly and laying siege to castles.

Just to let you know where I am: Day 900, ~1.8 million in the bank, level 37 with stats something like 25/29/43/27, leadership/pathfinding/surgery maxed, ~15 companions mostly around level 25 except for the knights. I have 5 walled fiefs: Laria, 2 nearby castles, Seven Cross Keep (between Laria and Sarleon), and Sarleon (my capital). 3 of those have CKO chapters, 2 have clarion call (which I am a member of and currently on the grandmaster quest). I've upgraded Clarion Call 4 times, I think. Playing on max difficulty, battlesizer 350 (comp can't go higher), except I savescum and lower difficulty for Noldor tournaments. Gotten only 1 qualis from there so far. Weekly income is -15000 or so, Sarleon/Laria have 1k+ troops each and all my villages are looted, but no problem since I have tons of cash in the bank.

I'm king of Pendor and currently own more than half the map--all of Sarleon and Fierdsvain (they are both wiped out), plus Singal/Nal Tar and a few castles here and there. I've recruited almost every good-natured/upstanding lord in the game, and probably have around 15-20 vassals (they like me but they suck at fighting). At war with the other 3 factions, and have about 30 of their lords rotting in the dungeon (including Marius Imperator). Ishkoman and Ethos have traded hands and their garrisons are currently very weak. Ravenstern is currently the strongest AI faction.

Aside from using mass gladiator stacks to autocalc noldor and unique spawns in the earlier parts of the game, I have been using a force of Hero Adventurers supported by Ravenstern Rangers for much of the game, supplemented by plain Rogue Knights (when I can rescue them) and Clarion Call knights. This was a very effective force for much of the game. Now, despite 10+4 surgery, I have been losing 2-3 HAs per major lord battle/siege plus a handful of RRs. I also have ~20 adventurers that are upgrading slowly. I have an army size of 370 or so and I am down to 20 HAs (from 60 originally), 70 RRs (from 150+ originally), and ~10 each of Clarion Call and Rogue Knights.

My problem is that I am finding it very difficult to replace my RRs and HAs, which were my bread and butter troops. Since I'm at war on three fronts (and multiple peace emissaries to each faction have been rejected), I don't have time to run all the way to Ravenstern to hire 3 recruits per village, nor do I have time to do a circuit of each city to look for young directional nobles in the taverns. Out of necessity, I've been experimenting with other troops and haven't been happy with the results. What kind of units should I look at to replenish my army? In hindsight I made a mistake not stockpiling more Ravenstern recruits, but can't fix that now.

I have a ton of random Sarleon troops in my fiefs, but they seem crappy and I don't want to use them. Same with Pendor obviously. I have some Fierds guys left over, and have been messing around with AAs and Huscarls---the Huscarls have done reasonably well in sieges, but the attrition rate is even higher than HAs and they don't train any faster (both come from level 30 troops). Empire's villages are close by and are still Empire culture, and I have 50+ relation with several of them so I can hire tons of Empire troops. I've been playing around with Legionnaires and EACs, and I've found that the Legionnaires look great on paper (320 WPF, good armor, throwing weapons) but aren't actually that effective. EACs seem okay, but still inferior to RRs. And they are way harder to train since they come from level 30 guys.

I have around 120+ CKO troops sitting around from gradual accumulation, but they are still a few months away from being ready (I'm using bobknight's basic gear guide--doom mace, netherworld shield, noldor bow, meltine arrows, plus serviceable armor that doesn't take too long to make). I haven't used up any of my Pendor nobles yet (I think I must have at least 300-400 waiting to be recruited), nor have I spent any prestige other than upgrading Clarion Call and creating knighthood chapters. So I have around 4500 prestige.

So I'm wondering--where should I go from here? I don't have any Qualis gems, so I can't make a KotEG chapter. I also don't have Sarleon nobles for more CCs, but I could disband a chapter and use Falcons or something. To be honest though I want to save all my prestige for CKOs when they're ready. Are Pendor foot knights/grey archers good? They look great on paper, but infantry tends to have a high attrition rate and several threads I've read on here suggest that RRs are the best foot archers in the game, even better than Pendor Greys and unupgraded Silvermists.

Any help appreciated. I realize I'm in a good spot, with a big bankroll and a lot of the map already conquered, but I feel I've stagnated the last few weeks as my army has suffered from more and more attrition.

 

[noosers]

If you haven´t already, heavily invest in the trainer skill.
That´s the answer to your question. If you already own half the map and a decent amount of lords, you shouldn´t have any problems mass recruiting the needed soldiers to train to your desired troops.

You lose too much money. Purge your garrisons to sane numbers - reduce the expensive troops (like no cavalry, no mercenaries, no tier5 ranged or only limitied amount (<50) in your walled fiefs.

Run them tight and smart and boost up numbers with a large amount of low leveled troops - the point is to flatten out battle disadvantage by numbers and edge your sword with your own party.

Especially Pendor regular troops are AWESOME for garrison duty - they´re cheap and easily acquired. Pendor Armoured Bowmen/Heavy Bowmen can shoot an arrow as straight as RR and nothing else matters in a defensive siege.

So sieve through your troop roster and clean it out. Then invest in trainer in your companions and yourself. Finally, release those lords who haven´t got a rotten personality or a ****load of dangerous troops. On the other hand, you should be easily able to defeat those again for the lulz and the spoils of war, especially if they haven´t got a fief anymore.

Just fight and recapture them for added positive relations and honor with them, and ransom the retared ones.
Furthermore you may notice that an imprisoned king is not likely to conduct any diplomacy, so in return for peace with the Empire you´d need to free Marius Imperator. Unfortunately WB sucks a bit at diplomacy and you won´t get a forced peace out of capturing a monarch. But either way, war will grease your profits.

And use those damn 1,8 million shiny denars for every possible and impossible village and city upgrade and keep those villages save, the more if they´re attached to your cities. You should have kept those and the ones of your castles as well - try to aim for a close blob of Royal Property in the safe hinterland the next time you PoP.

So from re-reading your post your main problem is training your troops - training skill. That´s all that matters. With a bunch of 15 NPC´s all having 2-6 trainer skill you´ll be able to upgrade tier4 troops in the tick of a night.

Secondly: Focus on troops and sieve through your garrisons and clear out expensive troopers - I meand 120+ CKO´s already sitting on their asses? Put those buggers to good use or simply dismantle or give away that castle after you filled it with all your expensive garrison units. Don´t recall now wether or not you can dump them in your Order Castle once you got it.

Use cheap troops (PENDOR!) for garrision duty if you insist on top-heavy city guards. I use about 400ish for towns, 300 archers, 100 infantry, with about 100 top tiered archers and 300 lower tiered archers and 75-100 top tiered infantry like Pendor Men at Arms mixed with Pendor Foot Knights. Some really hard hitting bastards. (Or similar faction troopers to honor the towns tradition).

Castles usually go with something like 150-200 troops, basically the same. ~3:1 ratio of archers:melee. Never use cavalry or mercenary units for cavalry duty.

Then a couple of dozen village quests throughout the game should have given you a great recruiting area bringing in those thousands of recruits which will end up in your major strategical location. Or Sarleon Center, if you own it. I usually end up with a couple of thousand recruits and freed prisoners of any species right there.

Finally:
Decide what you want to do now. Do you want to prolongate your game right now, release lords. If you don´t - rush the rest. Screw them all and simply take castle after castle after town and wipe them out. The AI will usually beehead for the weakest town/castle and be kept busy fighting each other or travelling from the east to the west of Pendor.

Just enjoy yourself and simply kill them all.

 

[Master Looter]

I don't have time to run all the way to Ravenstern to hire 3 recruits per village

In most mods i always edit the number of maximum available recruits from villages to 50. Pendor is no exception. I just don't have the nerve to play the recruiting roulette 

 

[damnimbored25]

I don't have time to run all the way to Ravenstern to hire 3 recruits per village

In most mods i always edit the number of maximum available recruits from villages to 50. Pendor is no exception. I just don't have the nerve to play the recruiting roulette 

Or you could just raise your relations with said villages up to like 50+, instead of 3 recruits they'll give you like 25-30 and SOME times they'll even give you upgraded troops.

 

[Montague]

I have around 120+ CKO troops sitting around from gradual accumulation, but they are still a few months away from being ready (I'm using bobknight's basic gear guide--doom mace, netherworld shield, noldor bow, meltine arrows, plus serviceable armor that doesn't take too long to make). I haven't used up any of my Pendor nobles yet (I think I must have at least 300-400 waiting to be recruited), nor have I spent any prestige other than upgrading Clarion Call and creating knighthood chapters. So I have around 4500 prestige.

So I'm wondering--where should I go from here? I don't have any Qualis gems, so I can't make a KotEG chapter. I also don't have Sarleon nobles for more CCs, but I could disband a chapter and use Falcons or something. To be honest though I want to save all my prestige for CKOs when they're ready. Are Pendor foot knights/grey archers good? They look great on paper, but infantry tends to have a high attrition rate and several threads I've read on here suggest that RRs are the best foot archers in the game, even better than Pendor Greys and unupgraded Silvermists.

Any help appreciated. I realize I'm in a good spot, with a big bankroll and a lot of the map already conquered, but I feel I've stagnated the last few weeks as my army has suffered from more and more attrition.

You have min/max paralysis. If you need archers, draft some Pendor nobles and produce Grey Archers. Otherwise Sarleon Armored Longbowmen or Empire AC work just fine. Troops you can actually produce on the battlefield are much better than ones you wish you had. Also you won't need >400 CKO troops to wipe out the enemy so there's no use in hoarding them.

 

[fidoman1272]

snip

snipsnip

You don't need 400 CMKHO troops, but god damn is it nice watching them stomp through line after line of peasant.

 

[thermocline]

All,

Thanks for the advice--very helpful, especially Noosers' detailed reply. Took your advice, streamlined my garrisons and donated extra troops to my vassals, hired mercenary companies with the cash, and went on an aggressive campaign to wipe out the factions. In 100 days, took down D'Shar, several Empire fiefs, then Ravenstern, then finished off Empire. Also smashed 3 Snake Cult armies plus Maltise (taking on her 2000+2000 army with a huge stack of 5000 from my lords was the most satisfying part of the game), and all the other faction armies on the map, except the Noldor lords (have 100 relation). Snake Cult/Jatu are now obliterated.

Question is, how do I close it out now? It says Mystmountain and Heretics are "Fading", but how do I wipe them out? I went to Ravenstern and started hunting small Mystmountain bandit groups, and have killed like 10 of them. They seem to respawn though, and all I've managed to do is tank my relations with Mystmountain to -40.

So how do I finish them off? Do I just wait?

 

[noosers]

Check Lord and milita parties in that area and ask them for rumors. They will increase the likelyhood to spawn a unique spawn (Mystmountain Army) which will lower the strengthometer far more significantly than 10 smaller parties.

 

[Ian Jones]

So how do I finish them off? Do I just wait?

              Yup.I only get the "Obliterated" notice  after I have defeated at least 4 unique spawn armies by myself-not the dinky bandit or warband spawns.
       
              Why Ravenstern Rangers only?30 Raventern Rangers,30 or less Sarleon Armored Longbowmen,30 or less Empire Armored Crossbowmen is the closest to having 10 Noldors archers for me -damn awesome-speed,accuracy,power,range plus the Armored Crossbowmen can do double duty as Medium(some would say Heavy)infantry to protect your favorite but relatively squishy Rangers.

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[Flingit]

I would also add that having 300-400 Pendor nobles ready means you could train up a boatload of Pendor foot knights and Grey archers which would actually be much better  than HA/RR in sieges, both offensively and defensively. Edit: the Pendor noble line also train up almost instantly to top tier, wayyyyy faster than HA or RR.

 

[Alavaria]

Yup.I only get the "Obliterated" notice  after I have defeated at least 4 unique spawn armies by myself-not the dinky bandit or warband spawns.

You should still be able to Obliterate factions by killing *enough* small patrols/spawned parties, but it's tiresome...

Funny to see armies and J'kuda etc wandering around as their faction is Oblierated.

 

[Ian Jones]

Yup.I only get the "Obliterated" notice  after I have defeated at least 4 unique spawn armies by myself-not the dinky bandit or warband spawns.

You should still be able to Obliterate factions by killing *enough* small patrols/spawned parties, but it's tiresome...

          Wow!Really?I've always considered the bandit type mystmountains like background noise but I guess it's useful to getting the BattleMaster
Achievement faster -fighting one after another without much Renown or a chance of getting a Qualis gem.I am a self-confessed Qualis addict and Renown whore.

Spoiler

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[heckani]

Yup.I only get the "Obliterated" notice  after I have defeated at least 4 unique spawn armies by myself-not the dinky bandit or warband spawns.

You should still be able to Obliterate factions by killing *enough* small patrols/spawned parties, but it's tiresome...

          Wow!Really?I've always considered the bandit type mystmountains like background noise but I guess it's useful to getting the BattleMaster
Achievement faster -fighting one after another without much Renown or a chance of getting a Qualis gem.I am a self-confessed Qualis addict and Renown whore.

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What...the....23000??????????? over 15 gems?????? How many days did you spend? XD How did you do this? Thats fantastic!!!!!!!!!!  Also your armour looks absolutely fabolours,mind telling us what exactly you´re wearing and how you obtained it?

You mylord are the greatest in the kingdom! This is insanely impressive! WOW! WHats your level? it must be insanely high if you got all that renown by fighting :O Please tell, show more! brag! this is amazing! 

 

[Jenurik Name]

Is that over a million denars? That's got to be more than the entire networth of Pendor.

 

[heckani]

Is that over a million denars? That's got to be more than the entire networth of Pendor.

Actually its possible to make several millions in pendor. I dont know exactly why. I made a trading guide about it, but profits are insane. Also selling prisoners got to be the best thing ever. An easy way is to hold feasts after your kingdom had a huge fight. Then they iwll all go to your castle/town, drop off their prisoners, ansd if you got a ransom broker in your town in the tavern (so you wont have to go forth and back) you can sell 1000+ prisoners and easiy mass noldor prisoners too and get millions. Just by prisoners I made around 3 milliion in my last game purely from them, those noldor troops pay quite handsomely

 

[palewarrior]

Dude ! That's a lot of gems...just sitting there 

Any hints or tips for capturing spawns?  I have defeated 7 unique spawns with my current main char, but only captured four of them.  Admittedly I joined in a couple of battles, so maybe the instigator always captures the unique spawns.

I think there are only 15 spawns that give Qualis gems (not counting the two Noldor Lords), did you capture any of them more than once ?

 

[Ian Jones]

What...the....23000??????????? over 15 gems?????? How many days did you spend? XD How did you do this? Thats fantastic!!!!!!!!!!  Also your armour looks absolutely fabolours,mind telling us what exactly you´re wearing and how you obtained it?

You mylord are the greatest in the kingdom! This is insanely impressive! WOW! WHats your level? it must be insanely high if you got all that renown by fighting :O Please tell, show more! brag! this is amazing!

Actually its possible to make several millions in pendor. I dont know exactly why. I made a trading guide about it, but profits are insane. Also selling prisoners got to be the best thing ever. An easy way is to hold feasts after your kingdom had a huge fight. Then they iwll all go to your castle/town, drop off their prisoners, ansd if you got a ransom broker in your town in the tavern (so you wont have to go forth and back) you can sell 1000+ prisoners and easiy mass noldor prisoners too and get millions. Just by prisoners I made around 3 milliion in my last game purely from them, those noldor troops pay quite handsomely

Dude ! That's a lot of gems...just sitting there 

Any hints or tips for capturing spawns?  I have defeated 7 unique spawns with my current main char, but only captured four of them.  Admittedly I joined in a couple of battles, so maybe the instigator always captures the unique spawns.

I think there are only 15 spawns that give Qualis gems (not counting the two Noldor Lords), did you capture any of them more than once ?

                Day 890.Difficulty=MAX
                My Stats

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                Party Size

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                Kill Stats.What can I say ,I'm a Kill Hog-a very greedy pig indeed.

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I usually keep points unuse in case I need to improve on 1(for example:equpment requirements).I got a lot of free Stat and Skill points from Achievements(like 4 Charisma points for killing thousands and points in Tactics for winning more than 500 battles).The crossbow effiency?Blah!I got a Mettenheim Arbalest as a loot against a unique spawn-used it thinking it would be better than a bow-NOT(wasted points).
My armor is a Lordly Full Plate Armor(modded with custom Silverwolf banner),my STR was 24 ,achievement raised it by 1,same with Ironflesh-so I can't wear those fancy Noldor armors that require a ridiculous 30 STR.
                I basically toyed with the Fierdsvain just to raise my Renown and go after Unique spawns (large) for Renown and Qualis using this (Conditions for Victory-Armies Remaining) as a guide and go search for them in the usual places-so 890 Days just having fun killing enemies.I have fought Wolfbode 5 fives but captured him only 3 times,same for Maltise,the others like Aleric are fairly easy.

Spoiler

                For money?Prisoners.I use a Masterwork Heavy Hammer and 4 Doom Maces for Companions(not used during Sieges or against Unique spawns)and the best-fellow Faction Lords dropping off tons  top tier troops(LionKnights,Immortals,Windriders,Noldor Nobles,etc.) as prisoners in my fiefs(towns/castles) for me to sell.
                  Don't have any need  to use Qualis yet.My Ruby Rune Bow I got free(Strange rune bow from some God,Rane Treasure Chest Qualis,and Red Brotherhood Loot quest equals free Ruby Rune Bow).I got Freddy Mettenheim a Sapphire 2Hdr(I use it during sieges) to go with his Mettenheim Arbalest.Noldor troops?Not really a good use of the pain of obtaining a Qualis in my opinion(maybe with 14 surgery and 14 First Aid Noldor troops might be fun but I don't have 14 surgery).Most of the towns I own already have a Knight Order established.

                            Don't ask why but for some reason I think NOT getting knocked unconscious in battle increases my chances of capturing unique spawn NPCs. .Perhaps I'm wrong ,but I try very hard not to get knocked unconscious against them-just in case.

 

[madboy]

Ok Ian, tell me how you got lvl 49 on day 890 ? I'm in my day 1600+ and my level is 47.

How the heck did you manage to do that ?

 

[Mad Vader]

According to his kills, by friendly fire.

 

[noosers]

Or rather, by a ton of grinding on low battlesize.

Given the fact the posted character is a archer/horsearcher it´s less astonishing but must have been pretty tiresome.
Still, if he gained all that XP regularily and didn´t cheat it (10 unused attribute points @lvl49), it´s quite some dedication, even if the character build looks weird.