Community Stats Patch and Competitive scene state

[Charlini]

As the competitive side of the community knows, There's been a problem trying to balance out the classes and different aspects of the game, lot of debate about what to change and how. I don't think that forcing anyone to install a module in order to play is viable or logical, but instead people should be able to just join in and play on Native without reestrictions. With that being said after speaking with some well known players, we have set some changes in common that will be tested and recalibrated on future small patches until we find the best approach. Keep in mind that non-client changes are limited to stats, not involving proficiencies, can't edit damages, prices or anything that would force players to download a new module.

This changes are gonna be tested in an upcoming 6v6 tournament, but its time for the community to set in common ground, this stat changes should be used in Matchmaking[Which should always share aswell all settings of the tournament being played at the time], which already agreed to, and all tournaments(Despite format) to come, which involves mainly 8v8 and 6v6 as there's people interested in hosting in both formats which may colive initially as 5v5 and 8v8 did in the past.

Original Native Stats before Comunity Patch

Spoiler: Stat Changes

Swadia
Crossbow +1 power strike to (3)
Crossbow +1 athletics (5)

Vaegirs
Archer -1 power draw (6)
Archer +1 power strike (1)
Infantry +2 shield skill (4)
Cavalry +1 Athletics (1)

Nords
Cavalry +1 shield skill (2)
Cavalry -2 Power Throw (1)
Infantry -1 power strike (4)
Infantry -2 power throw (2)

Rhodoks
Infantry +1 shield skill (6)
Cavalry +1 riding skill (5)
Crossbow +1 power strike (3)
Crossbow +1 athletics (5)

Sarranids
Cavalry +1 power strike (3)
Cavalry +2 athletics (2)
Infantry +2 shield skill (4)
Archer +1 athletics (4)
Archer +1 power strike (1)

Hope that people deliver some feedback specially after playing with those changes, which shouldn't be that noticable but again, better to take slow steps for the perfect balance than to break the meta entirely favouring certain classes, buffing or nerfing too much some compared to others.



About the Competitive current state of the scene, after reading about the 8v8 or 6v6 discussion and some facts on the matchmaking thread, I guess that throwing in some information here should help to coordinate things. There's people interested both in hosting 6v6s and 8v8s, and they both will happen likely at similar times through the next months, which may turn into a problem on the long run, but for now they should be free to try and determine efficient formats with common settings including applying of the stat patch in both areas. I'll likely host an upcoming 6v6 test tournament with format being optimised and settings being recalibrated from WWC to stablish this scene, and to finally see if some of the stuff being tested at the moment actually works(With this i target the Gold System, which is literally impossible to determine if it works or not without it being implemented on matchmaking for people to test out different upgrades and learn how it rolls), some maps may also be tested on this test 6v6, but again not 100% sure if i'll host it in the end.

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

I am 100% for these stat changes, the current week with nords v swads is just one clear example on how imbalanced stuff currently is.

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

Nord cav needs atleast +2 shield so you cant get headshot trough it. Adding 1 point does literally nothing. Don't unterstand why you'd buff swadias athletics.  Rhodok cav shouldnt have more riding skill but additional HP. We had that before somewhere and it was fine. Decreased nord inf pt means you can't use some throwing axes (you can throw them when equiped but cannot pick them up). This would need a fix.
Rest is fine but rather than tweaking stats I'd love to see changes like long awlpike not being useable for cavs and nord cavs javs not being free.
E: also tree and house hitboxes and smaller flag visuals (if that is doable serversided).

 

[Namakan]

[...] I don't think that forcing anyone to install a module in order to play is viable or logical, but instead people should be able to just join in and play on Native without reestrictions. [...]

Why though? There are many things that can't be done server-side, it's far more easy to implement cheats into an open-source module (read: Native; as in implementing into the module, unrelated to external cheats which are still most common) and installing an extra module really isn't that big of an effort.

[...]
E: also tree and house hitboxes and smaller flag visuals (if that is doable serversided).

Visuals aren't possible to set server-side, hitboxes might be but this could also lead to some visual glitches.

 

[Shemaforash]

Nord cav needs atleast +2 shield so you cant get headshot trough it. Adding 1 point does literally nothing.

that's the ****ty shields fault tbh, with dropped shields for cav that will cease to be prevalent. if you want to prohibit that you can upgrade the cavalry shield or receive 3rd tier shield from inf, 2 will be enough to not straight up get shot through the shield

 

[Gerard_de_reinee]

Why though? There are many things that can't be done server-side, it's far more easy to implement cheats into an open-source module (read: Native; as in implementing into the module, unrelated to external cheats which are still most common) and installing an extra module really isn't that big of an effort.

You're wrong. Matchmaking got much more popular as it became web-based. We need things to be as easy to access as possible.

 

[Aeronwen]

If possible, I would like to see the reasoning behind each change in the first post.

Changing anything makes it less easy for players new to the competitive scene to join in, so it is not just a question of whether the changes make competitive play better but also whether they make it better enough to outweigh any issues. I guess a test tounreament will answer that.

 

[Namakan]

Why though? There are many things that can't be done server-side, it's far more easy to implement cheats into an open-source module (read: Native; as in implementing into the module, unrelated to external cheats which are still most common) and installing an extra module really isn't that big of an effort.

You're wrong. Matchmaking got much more popular as it became web-based. We need things to be as easy to access as possible.

So a one-time download for a competitive module makes it inaccessible? Right.

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

Nord cav needs atleast +2 shield so you cant get headshot trough it. Adding 1 point does literally nothing.

that's the **** shields fault tbh, with dropped shields for cav that will cease to be prevalent. if you want to prohibit that you can upgrade the cavalry shield or receive 3rd tier shield from inf, 2 will be enough to not straight up get shot through the shield

I've tried this last time we had this stat change and the default cav shield and the 2nd nord inf shield let xbows shoot trough. I personally think it's a dumb thing to have since there's legit nothing you can do as cav player to not die if a crossbow is shooting you. Just wanted to point it out. The 3rd inf shield doesn't get shot trough with the current stats too.

I also don't really mind a competetive module. People that sign up for tournaments are suppose to check the threads anyway so if it's linked everyone should be able to get it. It's super easy to install. If it makes some changes alot easier, why not do it. People also download bannerpacks and texture packs or different crosshairs.

 

[Fietta]

Make a competitive conquest module with pre-set classes and equipment. Replicate Bannerlord.

 

[Charlini]

Guys, having the need of downloading an external module in order to play, is not an option, literally, it's annoying uncomfortable and it shouldn't be done unless the game was unplayable really. If I came back to the game in 2016 when i just logged in randomly to play and found out that i needed to download a module in order to play, i'd have came back the way i came inmediatly lol.

About the changes, again, we're not looking to Remove awlpikes or Nord Javs on the game, same way we can't touch proficiencies on vaegir's archery  in order to completly balance out anything COS IT WOULD REQUIRE this client-side change that we're trying to avoid. The best we can do is adapt some stats that balance the best way possible our current game, forget about drastic changes that people don't even agree with but try to set some common ideas into balancing around those stats please.

Textures and hitboxes were already improved drasticly on WSC1 where we manually edited most of the trees and corners with massive hitboxes in every competitive map, which by the way took a long time to do and seems people forgot about it. Textures are still a problem but again, that's asking not only for a client-side change but a whole new game overall, let's be realistic and stick to small steps based on stuff that doesn't involve messing the client.

About the feedback on stats, most have been adapted from Azan's previous stat changes idea, with a lot of opinions from competitive players in the current scene. It's gonna all be about testing. but will add a description on the main post tonight about why the changes on each stats. About specificly all those you mentioned I think the nord cav's default shields are awful, but as Shema said thats on the quality of these shields which are probably the worst on the game, could consider a buff but normally you don't face that problem with round dropped shields. Swadian athletics, honestly im unaware they were already set in on the previous idea, so i left them there due the reason that i guess they are quite on a wheelchair due equipment weight, so i guess they could use that extra point on athletics. Rhodok definetly doesn't need more HP considering the cost of their upgraded equipment, they would be way too tanky imo.

 

[JabdiMelborn]

...Why Khergit is not included on this rebalancing classes stats...?

ciauz^^,
Jab

 

[Namakan]

So you're saying having to download one thing once (like captains already do for the admin mod) would make players quit the game/scene? Please.

 

[CIIGES of the low lands]

we tried khergits, didnt work, too ****

 

[Apollo ?]

You would have to change so many things on khergits to make them viable.

 

[부부를 넘어서 가자]

I mean it's pretty much whatever to me but those changes won't really do anything. People cry about javs and awlpikes being op (for a good reason) so I don't understand why people that want to change something (which is a good thing to do) only tweak numbers which eventually will not change that much instead of actually adressing the 'op' stuff.

 

[Fietta]

Doesn't 5 shield skill allow even the smallest of shields to block arrows? Even if it doesn't the Rhodok shield is pretty massive anyways, I don't see the need for extra shield skill, they're quite OP with their 1 hit cleavers anyways. I feel like you're only giving it them just to try and buff them even though there's no reason for it because it's maybe their 'class advantage'?

 

[DarkLight]

Doesn't 5 shield skill allow even the smallest of shields to block arrows? Even if it doesn't the Rhodok shield is pretty massive anyways, I don't see the need for extra shield skill, they're quite OP with their 1 hit cleavers anyways. I feel like you're only giving it them just to try and buff them even though there's no reason for it because it's maybe their 'class advantage'?

You need one more point on shield skill so you dont get shot through by crossbows.

 

[Lord Rich]

Doesn't 5 shield skill allow even the smallest of shields to block arrows? Even if it doesn't the Rhodok shield is pretty massive anyways, I don't see the need for extra shield skill, they're quite OP with their 1 hit cleavers anyways. I feel like you're only giving it them just to try and buff them even though there's no reason for it because it's maybe their 'class advantage'?

You are correct, 5 shield skill is basically good enough to provide full coverage vertically even with small shields.

However, shield skill also effects a delay during melee. When I originally buffed the shield skill of the other factions I also buffed rhodoks too since they were already considered 'slow' in melee. The extra shield skill therefore is more about maintaining melee parity than helping deal with ranged.

You need one more point on shield skill so you dont get shot through by crossbows.

As far as I know shield skill has no effect on crossbow penetration, but I have never tested it.

 

[Oliveran]

Doesn't 5 shield skill allow even the smallest of shields to block arrows? Even if it doesn't the Rhodok shield is pretty massive anyways, I don't see the need for extra shield skill, they're quite OP with their 1 hit cleavers anyways. I feel like you're only giving it them just to try and buff them even though there's no reason for it because it's maybe their 'class advantage'?

Shields also close and open faster with a higher shield skill. Rhodok shields would, with a high enough skill, open up as fast as an old kite shield, if they have like 8-9 in shield skill (as an example).

Shooting through them though, as in penetrating them, has nothing to do with the shield skill.

if damage > (shield_resistance * module_ini_shield_penetration_factor + module_ini_shield_penetration_offset):
	go through shield and reduce damage by 40-60%

Speed and such increase damage too, making cav more susceptible to getting their shield shot through.